Perceptions of equity in sff

[RX-79G]

What we don't know is how big that imbalance is (and how it varies between the genres) or if it has been led by exclusion or natural tastes.

For it to be exclusion, the vast majority of potential female SF writers would have to have a well formed impression that writing their favorite genre would be fruitless. Brian's post contends that the decisions made in the publishing houses are not easy to apprehend, so it is hard to see why those female SF authors would so roundly assume that their submissions would be passed over to the point that they don't bother. They could just as easily assume their submission would be a welcome, given the heavy male authorship on bookstands.

And while there might be a correlation to the relative disinterest women have in STEM jobs, submitting a book for publishing isn't the same as joining a particular workforce, so it is unlikely that becoming a member of the SF industry is daunting.

 

[Dan Jones]

I suspect that the research side of traditional publishing isn't very well organised or funded, so it wouldn't surprise me if publishing turned out to be governed by perception rather than proper analysis.

Well this is it, isn't it? At LBF yesterday I listened to Jo Fletcher and Ian Drury both say that it's impossible to say what's going to be a hit, but you know it when you see it, and even then you can get it wrong. Research is pretty worthless, but the big publishers probably think they at least have to try. The gateway to the industry is not objective, it's subjective, and based upon certain people's opinions, which is what makes publishing, and the attempt to get one's work published, a frustrating and emotive topic of discussion. So I'm not surprised that research into what makes a hit is aimless and/or meaningless.

It could be that the subjectivity of publishing creates perceptions of inequity, and as Hex says, a innate sense of conservatism may lead to skewed publishing / reading / writing statistics among the sexes, which may be perceived, or may be very real. But there are lots of women in the SFF business who are successful and impressive: I'll name check Jo Fletcher again; Ella Diamond Khan, Bryony Woods and Elinor Cooper at DKW; Emma and Tik at Snowbooks; Carolyn Whitaker, and more that I can't recall off the top of my head, but there are many.

All of which lead me to think that the statistics are driven by the skewed number of submissions, where men seem to sub more than women. So what's the root cause of that? One possible answer is representation within the work itself. One old saw is, "if I don't see myself somewhere, then I feel I don't belong there." So the inclusion of a range of personas in literature (where appropriate, and it's not always) helps to dispel that idea of lack of representation, which in turn encourages participation, and over time, you may gradually arrive at equity. But it ain't a quick fix.

And lastly, as a writer with a massive stake in a product, why wouldn't I want to make it as attractive to as many different audiences as possible?

 

[RX-79G]

And lastly, as a writer with a massive stake in a product, why wouldn't I want to make it as attractive to as many different audiences as possible?

How does that factor in to the choices a female writer makes? Are you suggesting pen names, or abandoning her preferred genre for a more salable one?

 

[Dan Jones]

How does that factor in to the choices a female writer makes?

It doesn't. I'm not responsible for the choices other people make. Neither am I writing for any particular cross-section of the audience, but at the same time I want to create something that has the best possible chance to succeed, as well as tell the story and convey the themes I want. If that has knock-on effects, so be it.

 

[Jo Zebedee]

Sorry - all female sf writers I know (more than a few) feel the genre is closed to them, that they face additional obstacles, and that only the bloody minded ones make it.

Entering a male dominated sphere is daunting. It may not seem it when you are of the demograph that leads a genre, of course, but it is. Little subtle sexist memes, assumptions and jokes.

I am the only girl in a family of blokes - blokes environments don't daunt me. But they do others.

With respect, until you've been the female trying to make it in the sf world I don't think you're in the position to judge if it's off putting to run the gauntlet and to be told (as I have this week and previously and will again, I'm sure) that it's a man's genre anyway. It is. Hats off to those who run that gauntlet. How nice it would be if they didn't have to face such resistance to doing so.

 

[RX-79G]

Entering a male dominated sphere is daunting. It may not seem it when you are of the demograph that leads a genre, of course, but it is. Little subtle sexist memes, assumptions and jokes.

If the publishing industry is squarely female, and you don't require the assistance of your fellow writers to write or submit, what active male force is dominating it?

 

[Teresa Edgerton]

Do women readers prefer SF stories written by one gender or the other? Is it possible that the deciding factor in gender sales has been the female readers? (Yes, it is possible.)

In my conversations with editors at large publishing houses I have heard that women SF readers care far less about the gender of the writer than men do. So if women are about equally likely to read a book whether it is written by a woman or by a man, but significantly large numbers of men will only read books written by other men, who do you think is really the deciding factor?

 

[Teresa Edgerton]

If the publishing industry is squarely female, and you don't require the assistance of your fellow writers to write or submit, what active male force is dominating it?

I don't think that it is squarely female at all. Most of the editors may be female, but in order to make an offer on a book an editor has to get her superiors, as well as the folks in sales and marketing, to sign off on it.

To prove that the industry is dominated by females you would have to have numbers that say they are holding most of the top positions, as well as occupying most of the positions in sales and marketing. I don't believe they are.

 

[RX-79G]

In my conversations with editors at large publishing houses I have heard that women SF readers care far less about the gender of the writer than men do. So if women are about equally likely to read a book whether it is written by a woman or by a man, but significantly large numbers of men will only read books written by other men, who do you think is really the deciding factor?

If you have to choose only those two, then you pick male readers. But if the men's preferences aren't particularly strong, then it pays to keep looking.

Especially since many people perceive that woman and men aren't writing the same sort of books, or supply the same number of manuscripts.

 

[RX-79G]

I don't think that it is squarely female at all. Most of the editors may be female, but in order to make an offer on a book an editor has to get her superiors, as well as the folks in sales and marketing, to sign off on it.

To prove that the industry is dominated by females you would have to have numbers that say they are holding most of the top positions, as well as occupying most of the positions in sales and marketing. I don't believe they are.

I don't know or believe either way - I'm repeating what others have said in this thread. Even if they are not, you still have to then decide that the men are the actual ones creating the inequity - which takes us back to the submission stats and the buying preferences.

 

[Hex]

If the publishing industry is squarely female, and you don't require the assistance of your fellow writers to write or submit, what active male force is dominating it?

To be fair, it's not just about the subbing -- acceptance -- publication aspect (though that's important), it's also about things like conventions, other fan environments and who you perceive as a writer in your area. When I started writing I wanted to write like Patricia McKillip (or Holly Black), who are presumably women, but I wonder if I wanted to write like Joe Abercrombie if it would be harder? Maybe it depends on the person?

EDIT: we could always have structural inequality in the publishing industry, if we wanted -- it doesn't have to be the case that women editors will inevitably be biased towards women's books (or neutral).

 

[Teresa Edgerton]

Apparently men's preferences are particularly strong. A great number of them actively avoid books by female writers, and some will say that the gender of the writer doesn't matter to them at all but a look at what they actually buy tells a very different story.

 

[Hex]

(I'd feel very strange reading a romance written by a man -- I don't know why I would, but I think I would. I wonder if it's a similar thing?)

 

[RX-79G]

To be fair, it's not just about the subbing -- acceptance -- publication aspect (though that's important), it's also about things like conventions, other fan environments and who you perceive as a writer in your area.

I honestly wonder if this perception is another gender difference?

A great number of them actively avoid books by female writers, and some will say that the gender of the writer doesn't matter to them at all but a look at what they actually buy tells a very different story.

I don't doubt either, mainly because there is some agreement that women tend to write a slightly different brand of SF, on average. And maybe that would be different if more women were writing and submitting SF in the first place?

 

[Teresa Edgerton]

And maybe that would be different if more women were writing and submitting SF in the first place?

You mean if more women were writing, more of them would wise-up and write like men?

 

[Jo Zebedee]

If the publishing industry is squarely female, and you don't require the assistance of your fellow writers to write or submit, what active male force is dominating it?

Any writer who makes it without support from their peers is in the minority. But the active male force is in the realms of interactions with the genre. Convention panels (and the cons now work hard for equity, the stars), sf forums, networking are all still male dominated.

 

[RX-79G]

You mean if more women were writing, more of them would wise-up and write like men?

Well, you clearly would prefer that to be my meaning. Why bother asking?

 

[Jo Zebedee]

Apparently men's preferences are particularly strong. A great number of them actively avoid books by female writers, and some will say that the gender of the writer doesn't matter to them at all but a look at what they actually buy tells a very different story.

Hence my post earlier - that those picking up an advert for a sf book by a female writer have been 90% female despite more males receiving the ad. I know my marketing will skew on the basis of that.

 

[Teresa Edgerton]

Although, to be fair, Jo, I think that sf forums are working toward equity, too. There are certainly plenty of strong female voices here who refuse to be dominated by anyone.

 

[Teresa Edgerton]

Well, you clearly would prefer that to be my meaning. Why bother asking?

Actually, I'd prefer that you meant something else, and told me what that something else was, and it was something that gave us some sort of common ground in what we hope and expect for the future. But if you'd rather not answer then I guess I will have to draw my own conclusions.