A Growing indifference to Cinema Going

"And compare it to This Is the Army--how does that movie end? It ends with a marriage, not characters going off to fight."

What's that got to do with anything?

Hollywood box office receipts are indeed a minefield. But as you seem to regard Wikipedia's opinion highly how does "a substantial but not spectacular box-office success," become "It didn't do well when released", or "not a big hit"?
 
"And compare it to This Is the Army--how does that movie end? It ends with a marriage, not characters going off to fight."

What's that got to do with anything?

Hollywood box office receipts are indeed a minefield. But as you seem to regard Wikipedia's opinion highly how does "a substantial but not spectacular box-office success," become "It didn't do well when released", or "not a big hit"?
It did better than Casablanca--probably the story had something to do with it.
"Substantial but not spectacular" is not a ringing endorsement. I don't know what spectacular would be.
 
The damned concessions drive up the prices . Six dollars for a bag of popcorn, and 10 dollars for ticket.

On the other hand, £7 on a Wednesday afternoon, with only you and maybe one or two other people in there makes it feels like it's your own private viewing. As for food , a 50p packet of Rolos will do.

On a related note to the cost of refreshments at the movies, the song 'Cinema Smugglers' by The Lancashire Hotpots is well worth a listen to on Youtube.
 
The damned concessions drive up the prices . Six dollars for a bag of popcorn, and 10 dollars for ticket.

On the other hand, £7 on a Wednesday afternoon, with only you and maybe one or two other people in there makes it feels like it's your own private viewing. As for food , a 50p packet of Rolos will do.

On a related note to the cost of refreshments at the movies, the song 'Cinema Smugglers' by The Lancashire Hotpots is well worth a listen to on Youtube.

7 pound is almost 10 US dollars .

50 Pense a little over 60 cents US

Comparable prices between the US and UK.
 
I'm still hoping to see some films at the cinema that have been released over the past year I didn't get chance to see at the cinema. Wolfwalkers is my most anticipated, whether I get to see it at the cinema (preferable) or not:

Wolfwalkers is coming up at Vue cinemas from 29th May, and given the current discussion about the expense of cinema - at only £2.49 per ticket!

If it's half as good as the makers' previous film, Song of the Sea (my favourite film of the 2010s), it's going to be good.
 
I have to see Dune on the big screen. I'll accept no substitutes. That's about it really. Maybe The Green Knight.

Based on the preview clips Dune looks vert good .

The Green Knight looks like an amazing and very dark and disturbing fantasy film.
 
The only thing Hollywood understands is the movie business and how to please audiences. They understand nothing else.
If they didn’t understand those two things they would be out of business. A fair few decent films still get made amongst all the pap.
 
I am repeating myself and long-winded as usual but it is worth repeating and I have too much spare time today.


How can something that is beyond supply and demand go out of business?


They have unlimited money and the big studios always did. They didn't start with zero money or contacts.
They also had to avoid Edison's patent lawyers. So there's no comparison to small mom and pop capitalist business. Most small businesses do not have contacts on another continent to help them get a monopoly in other countries. Hollywood dominated UK and Italian cinema by 1930. If Mussolini had not cut access, would Fellini or Bava or other famous Italian filmmakers--would they have had opportunities? Hollywood is about downsizing and centralized control--they are not advocates of cultural product variety. They offered it when it was cheap but costs were going up and there's Hollywood Accounting behind that. It's no sound business practice, it is something else.

In the 1940s they were pressuring theaters to reduce choice for audiences by demanding that they only play the films of a particular studio. The theater owners were pressured to not pick and choose films that may have been of particular appeal to their audience.
It was called blockbooking. Sounds similar to blockbuster?



Does Hollywood know how to please people?


I think they were more liberal and experimental than Edison was going to be--he wasn't a filmmaker--he didn't care about the medium that much --he developed sound recording for film by 1910 and just left on the shelf.
Early Hollywood jumped on the technology much more than Edison was going to.

But in the early days the biggest cinema stars were Griffith, Fairbanks, Pickford, etc. and they were making their own content without any need for big Hollywood. They didn't need them and the audiences didn't need them. The big studios eliminated the star-producer like Fairbanks-they put actors under their control so the performer did not have the creative freedom that Fairbanks or Pickford or Chaplin had. The studio contract actor was under incredible personal control (and it is still around today if you pay attention).

It was good and bad--it did bring a lot more faces into the spotlight due to the money resources and factory-approach, but it came at a price--i.e. content and themes were becoming restricted.

In the 1950s film stock became cheaper which allowed new people to get into the business. So you had a global boom in film. From Argentina to Japan to Mexico to Spain--even the Philippines.

Except the USSR.

It's very sad--Russia and Eastern Europe had a long cultural history and yet, due to the centralized control of the Soviet system, in 70 years, the only two names in Soviet-controlled regions to be repeated or focused on were
Eisenstein and Tarkovsky.
That is a tragic failure of cultural expression of that system. I know a few other names are starting to trickle out (Ptushko) but compared to the West, or even Japan, or Mexico, the Soviet output is just beyond pathetic.

How many artists in those Soviet regions were reduced to sweeping floors because the government gave them no opportunities and there was no competition possible for MOSFILM?
There is an example of cultural production that has no dependency on audience interest or response. There was no competition. And they existed for 70 years. They had the money and the monopoly and absolutely were not populist.

And the modern global studio seems to admire and increasingly follow that model. It is at the stage of hiring only loyal apparatchiks and they get very aggressive about ideological disloyalty.

I think if we examine film from a technological history perspective, then Hollywood did not aggressively tap into any trends that were dictated by audiences.
In the 1960s they were stagnant, and losing audiences to smaller production companies that were more focused on particular target demographics. You don't try to please everyone at all times-you try to please a particular group.

Hollywood invested in technological advances for makeup, set design, sound engineering, stunts, and visual effects at the same time the Hayes Code was being discontinued.
Technological change was happening--and that's where the excitement was.

I think the superstar of the blockbuster era were the technicians, not the writer, not the director, not the actor.

But then, as these big studios gobbled up and merged, they reduced their content, and increasingly focused on technological whizbang, and eventually the innovations no longer impress like they did.
Computer graphics is no longer able to make people go "wow."
Especially as the filmmaking becomes more centralized and controlled.

They have to reconnect with traditional art values--depictions of Nature, individual creative expression and control..and follow some kind of populist awareness.
Just because they hire a director from mainland China to make a Dracula remake, does not mean they are embracing cultural diversity.
It's controlled in message and theme and ultimately means less creative voices are being nurtured.

Culture is in a vice and it being compressed and cannibalized. All because of the suppression of artists and limited professional opportunity.
 
Wolfwalkers is coming up at Vue cinemas from 29th May, and given the current discussion about the expense of cinema - at only £2.49 per ticket!

If it's half as good as the makers' previous film, Song of the Sea (my favourite film of the 2010s), it's going to be good.
The animation in Wolfwalkers is stunning (particularly some scenes towards the end) and deserves to be seen on the big screen.

I've hugely enjoyed my two cinema visits (the other was for Gladiator) since cinemas reopened in the UK.
 
I am repeating myself and long-winded as usual but it is worth repeating and I have too much spare time today.


How can something that is beyond supply and demand go out of business?

They have unlimited money and the big studios always did. They didn't start with zero money or contacts.
They also had to avoid Edison's patent lawyers. So there's no comparison to small mom and pop capitalist business. Most small businesses do not have contacts on another continent to help them get a monopoly in other countries. Hollywood dominated UK and Italian cinema by 1930. If Mussolini had not cut access, would Fellini or Bava or other famous Italian filmmakers--would they have had opportunities? Hollywood is about downsizing and centralized control--they are not advocates of cultural product variety. They offered it when it was cheap but costs were going up and there's Hollywood Accounting behind that. It's no sound business practice, it is something else.

In the 1940s they were pressuring theaters to reduce choice for audiences by demanding that they only play the films of a particular studio. The theater owners were pressured to not pick and choose films that may have been of particular appeal to their audience.
It was called blockbooking. Sounds similar to blockbuster?



Does Hollywood know how to please people?

I think they were more liberal and experimental than Edison was going to be--he wasn't a filmmaker--he didn't care about the medium that much --he developed sound recording for film by 1910 and just left on the shelf.
Early Hollywood jumped on the technology much more than Edison was going to.

But in the early days the biggest cinema stars were Griffith, Fairbanks, Pickford, etc. and they were making their own content without any need for big Hollywood. They didn't need them and the audiences didn't need them. The big studios eliminated the star-producer like Fairbanks-they put actors under their control so the performer did not have the creative freedom that Fairbanks or Pickford or Chaplin had. The studio contract actor was under incredible personal control (and it is still around today if you pay attention).

It was good and bad--it did bring a lot more faces into the spotlight due to the money resources and factory-approach, but it came at a price--i.e. content and themes were becoming restricted.

In the 1950s film stock became cheaper which allowed new people to get into the business. So you had a global boom in film. From Argentina to Japan to Mexico to Spain--even the Philippines.

Except the USSR.

It's very sad--Russia and Eastern Europe had a long cultural history and yet, due to the centralized control of the Soviet system, in 70 years, the only two names in Soviet-controlled regions to be repeated or focused on were
Eisenstein and Tarkovsky.
That is a tragic failure of cultural expression of that system. I know a few other names are starting to trickle out (Ptushko) but compared to the West, or even Japan, or Mexico, the Soviet output is just beyond pathetic.

How many artists in those Soviet regions were reduced to sweeping floors because the government gave them no opportunities and there was no competition possible for MOSFILM?
There is an example of cultural production that has no dependency on audience interest or response. There was no competition. And they existed for 70 years. They had the money and the monopoly and absolutely were not populist.

And the modern global studio seems to admire and increasingly follow that model. It is at the stage of hiring only loyal apparatchiks and they get very aggressive about ideological disloyalty.

I think if we examine film from a technological history perspective, then Hollywood did not aggressively tap into any trends that were dictated by audiences.
In the 1960s they were stagnant, and losing audiences to smaller production companies that were more focused on particular target demographics. You don't try to please everyone at all times-you try to please a particular group.

Hollywood invested in technological advances for makeup, set design, sound engineering, stunts, and visual effects at the same time the Hayes Code was being discontinued.
Technological change was happening--and that's where the excitement was.

I think the superstar of the blockbuster era were the technicians, not the writer, not the director, not the actor.

But then, as these big studios gobbled up and merged, they reduced their content, and increasingly focused on technological whizbang, and eventually the innovations no longer impress like they did.
Computer graphics is no longer able to make people go "wow."
Especially as the filmmaking becomes more centralized and controlled.

They have to reconnect with traditional art values--depictions of Nature, individual creative expression and control..and follow some kind of populist awareness.
Just because they hire a director from mainland China to make a Dracula remake, does not mean they are embracing cultural diversity.
It's controlled in message and theme and ultimately means less creative voices are being nurtured.

Culture is in a vice and it being compressed and cannibalized. All because of the suppression of artists and limited professional opportunity.

Bang on. There's a documentary on Amazon prime about how the roll back on tax breaks, and the system of tax breaks meant that studios in the UK were incentivised to only work with American production houses, and this killed our home grown production teams - relegating them to period pieces, Guy Ritchie hard-man crime and sixties nostalgia.

I think the rise of gaming, and the infinite reproducibility / near zero marginal cost that the internet provides has reduced the importance of film, music and print media. That and the effect the internet has had on our attention spans.

Didn't Terry Eagleton say culture was dead?
 
That sounds like an interesting documentary. I feel there should be a closer examination of that period and the effects on regional artistic creativity. You can see it so clearly if you just look at the history.

The internet has been useful to rediscover older films or artists with merit and escape the sensational ballyhoo of the corporate windbag machine.
 
That sounds like an interesting documentary. I feel there should be a closer examination of that period and the effects on regional artistic creativity. You can see it so clearly if you just look at the history.

The internet has been useful to rediscover older films or artists with merit and escape the sensational ballyhoo of the corporate windbag machine.

And because of the internet I found the film Die Nibelungan by Fritz Lang . I had no idea this marvellous silent film even existed ! :cool:

The whole film, made in 1924, is on Youtube .:cool: Its quite a film !:cool:
 
I read about it in books decades ago. I want to check out the Dr.Mabuse films--that's something I have been curious about for decades.
Finally can get access to it.
Not possible 30 years ago unless you found some specialty video place by mail order.
 
I read about it in books decades ago. I want to check out the Dr.Mabuse films--that's something I have been curious about for decades.
Finally can get access to it.
Not possible 30 years ago unless you found some specialty video place by mail order.

The way Die Nibelungan looks is fascinating . It looks like old paintings of epic scenes brought to life . Its wonderful stuff ! :cool:
 
Movies follow Hollywood accounting: the amount spent to produce the movie does not include marketing it, and the amount earned is almost halved because the movie theater owners have to be paid. Large amounts are at stake, both for production and the cost of franchises, which is why studios have to show very expensive movies outside the dump months, and it's a make or break thing: they have to earn at least 2.5 times more than production cost.

Sometimes, even theater owners don't earn enough from the movies shown, which is why they probably make as much from food sold.

Since traditional domestic markets won't cover ticket sales, then movies have to be shown internationally, and preferably hitting the PG sweet spot. Given different cultures and languages, that means simple plots. Because of high ticket prices, they also have to be more than two hours long and look expensive (meaning, lots of CGI). And with competition, they have to be done right away, which means prequels, sequels, reboots, rehashes, etc. There's no three-year wait: the next features in the installment are made and shown the ff. year.

That's why many movies the past two decades look alike: action or spectacle takes place within the first few minutes and everything is highlighted. In contrast, think of horror sci-fi like Aliens, where the action starts halfway into the movie, and the first half involves a lot of exposition and character development. You'll rarely see such movies today.

With that, more just wait for the movies to be made avaiable in bargain bins or shown on streaming or cable.
 
I was reading about studio fortunes in 1970.
FOX had so many box office failures they didn't produce any movies in 1970 (except for ones done through a separate production company--like the Planet of the Apes films).
But it is no surprise if you look at the slate of costly films they made--the plots are not audience magnets. But there were low budget movies that got their money back.

More recently two of the biggest box office bombs are Cutthroat Island and The Lone Ranger. They have a couple of things in common--neither has a strong male lead character for an adventure story.
Mathew Modine is not an adventure movie lead. There have been women-led pirate movies. But they don't make the guy into a mundane wimp. And that's what they did with Cutthroat Island. Throwing a lot of money at something like that, especially when pirate movies are not considered box office gold. Not until they did a supernatural angle like POTC.

The Lone Ranger--when I heard Depp was in it I assumed he was the title character. But they made the Lone Ranger into a wimpy guy. You are defying audience expectations when you do that. The Legend of the Lone Ranger did something similar. The lead was uninspiring. It should be common sense that if you do an action story, that you want the lead character to be interesting, brave, heroic, some kind of positive angle to it.
Westerns used to be really cheap to make too. Now it costs $200 million to make one.
 
I was reading about studio fortunes in 1970.
FOX had so many box office failures they didn't produce any movies in 1970 (except for ones done through a separate production company--like the Planet of the Apes films).
But it is no surprise if you look at the slate of costly films they made--the plots are not audience magnets. But there were low budget movies that got their money back.

More recently two of the biggest box office bombs are Cutthroat Island and The Lone Ranger. They have a couple of things in common--neither has a strong male lead character for an adventure story.
Mathew Modine is not an adventure movie lead. There have been women-led pirate movies. But they don't make the guy into a mundane wimp. And that's what they did with Cutthroat Island. Throwing a lot of money at something like that, especially when pirate movies are not considered box office gold. Not until they did a supernatural angle like POTC.

The Lone Ranger--when I heard Depp was in it I assumed he was the title character. But they made the Lone Ranger into a wimpy guy. You are defying audience expectations when you do that. The Legend of the Lone Ranger did something similar. The lead was uninspiring. It should be common sense that if you do an action story, that you want the lead character to be interesting, brave, heroic, some kind of positive angle to it.
Westerns used to be really cheap to make too. Now it costs $200 million to make one.

The success of Star Wars certainly helped out Fox.:)
 

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