This Thing About Advice...

[Cathbad]

Okay, try to keep the Hate Mail over what I'm bout to say to a minimum, please.

But Seriously: I find that "Writing Advice" tends to be counter-productive to most (new) authors.

I say this from years of speaking to aspiring authors and lengthy discussions - both with friends and virtual strangers.

The most serious effect I've seen is discouragement. I've seen / heard stories of how would-be authors have just given up, after receiving advice from more knowledgeable or published authors. Such advice they tend to give can seem unachievable to many.

Now, I'm not talking (necessarily) about honest critiques of one's work - though that, too, can be demoralizing. I'm talking about advice like, how to write to get published/noticed, marketing advice ("you should do this" rather than "these are your options"), etc.

If you've noticed, I don't offer much advice: Frankly, I don't think my advice would be worth a plug nickel: Unlike the tens of thousands of authors on Twitter, I'm not a Best Seller in any category!

I don't critique much in here, either, because I would usually give platitudes like, "You have some very interesting story ideas!" - I actually fear discouraging people.

The only advice I (usually) offer to a Would-Be Author is:

"Write the story you want to tell, in the manner you want to tell it. If you are pleased with the final product - you've succeeded!"

 

[Toby Frost]

I think this is very hard to answer. I would say that any advice I give is intended to make a story more saleable, which I would hope means better. It's true that there are things I would recommend, such as having an exciting start to the story, which didn't happen in older books and didn't harm those books for it. But I would hope that I was giving advice that maximised the chances of producing a good, successful story that appealed to modern readers, which seems like a reasonable compromise between writing something good and writing something that sells.

I think there are too many people out there saying that the road to success (however you define it) is to write exactly as they say. The older I get, the less convinced I become that there is one set path to success in most things. "These are your best options" is more useful than "Do it like this". However, there are things that don't work or sell, or that work so badly that something else should be tried, and that to me seems like a good place to offer criticism. There is also perhaps too much writing advice and a danger of overload (also, people operate in different ways. One how-to guide might help one person and bewilder another).

When I started out, one of the skills I was never told about was deciding when to ignore criticism. Taking it was difficult enough, but it was difficult to decide that a particular point was wrong, or took the story in a way that I didn't want it to go.

 

[Jo Zebedee]

I think it's a two-edged sword. Some people really want that advice and actively seek it - and it would be very hard to say that no, they can't have it.

Part of our capicity to critically analyse is to be able to sift through conflicting advice to reach our own decision i.e. What people choose to do with the advice is out of the hands of the person giving it.

But giving unsolicited advice to someone not wanting it - that's a different scenario altogether.

 

[Phyrebrat]

Hi Cathbad, I read your initial post and went off to eat before I replied, came back and found Toby has said pretty much what I think, too.

Like you, I'm very forgiving -although I don't think of it as forgiving or tolerant- of most stylistic things. I'm not tolerant of typos and other simple errors, though. Toby makes a good point about the focus can be more helpful if it's about what you shouldn't do, as opposed to what you should, and possibly then only in regards to nuts 'n' bolts technique. The other thing which is crucial to observe is an objectivity to crits.

Social media and the e-rrrrrrevolution has perhaps influenced the current trend for hooks or snappy, exciting beginnings; a generation has been growing that needs to be instantly gratified (if I told you the practice of 'micro tasks' now in State Education, you'd be appalled, I think). In that respect, our opinions might be respected excusively by people within our own demographic or tribe. State Education has a massive part to play in that (is my opinion) as we are catering to a quick-consumption audience, and not training kids to go deep-process in school and so they cannot mine a subject or something comprehensively if they can't find an instant answer. When I was at Uni in 2009-11 as a mature student I was horrified at the kids in my cohort - sorry, young people - who were incapable of independent thought or research. We've disempowered self-learning and that has had a knock on effect in FE and HE.

I don't critique much in here, either, because I would usually give platitudes like, "You have some very interesting story ideas!" - I actually fear discouraging people.

I also think you should give this kind of feedback. Not only to mitigate harsher criticisms the author might be subject to, but also to let them know what doesn't need changing. Not everyone has our tough skin and learning styles are as diverse as critting styles. I thrive on having my work pulled apart by all and sundry so I can decide if there's a pattern and if I am making technical or stylistic choices that don't jive with people. I put crits up to find my faults, but that is just me. I'm not averse to complimentary observations though.

People I respect on Chrons have given me a spectrum of opinons on my style and the more a writer gets those kind of opinions, the more data they have to work with over what works and what doesn't.

I abhor football and The Beatles but I'm a minority there. Doesn't mean I can't voice it. Equally doesn't mean Im right.

When anyone receives advice, I always assume they understand it is one person's subjective opinion.

pH

 

[Ihe]

All new aspiring authors will be at the start of their journey, and that means that whatever they are doing, most often than not is not ideal. All advice is a critique, veiled or not-so-veiled. Advice will always be about goals writers haven't reached yet, so it's safe to say most advice will be implicitly discouraging, because it will undoubtedly address mistakes and things missing. Advice is rarely given/needed over doing it right. If you do it right, you won't need (or even want) advice to begin with.

Bottom line is there's no escaping discouragement-full advice. Even if worded carefully and amiably, at the core all advice hurts. An I will say that if constructive pre-publishing advice discourages a writer too much/too often, then he/she might not be cut out for authoring at all, as once a book is published, the pressure and level of scrutiny can increase exponentially.

Advice from more experienced writers is invaluable, painful or not. You can choose what to take and what to ignore after, but you should definitely listen, even it it is just to do the complete opposite. Whenever you do anything, it's always better to start with the most information available. You can sift through it as you see fit later on.

 

[Ihe]

We've disempowered self-learning and that has had a knock on effect in FE and HE.

Which is strange given that we've never had it easier than now to self-learn, what with the internet and so many free resources at hand.

 

[Lumens]

I don't know. I am an aspiring writer, but before I can learn how to sell, I have to learn how to write well. These are not the same, from my perspective. I think a good teacher is someone who can see what level you're at, and advice you accordingly. This goes for all sorts of things of course.

It is important for beginners to understand that to get good at something, one has to put in a lot of work. You have to enjoy the journey. The road is the destination, for me.

 

[Toby Frost]

That's nicely put. You should be a writer or something!

 

[HareBrain]

When I was at Uni in 2009-11 as a mature student I was horrified at the kids in my cohort - sorry, young people - who were incapable of independent thought or research.

To be fair, things were like that when I was a kid. When I moved up to sixth form, we were told we had to be more self-motivated and organise much of our own learning. Nope: I did exactly what I was told, and no more, and got good grades. At uni we were told the same thing. Nope: the same (leaving plenty of time for D&D, friends' awful Bauhaus records, and cider).

I'm quite glad, though, that I started writing completely solo, with no advice from anyone except a couple of books, for several years -- meaning that when I did start getting critiqued during my MA, I'd already knocked the pretentiousness out of my style (which was, in the beginning, florid and awful). Had I had a resource like Chrons right at the start, it might have taken me a lot less time to figure out what I was doing, but on the other hand I might have given it up as a bad job. I've no idea which.

 

[zmunkz]

I don't know. I am an aspiring writer, but before I can learn how to sell, I have to learn how to write well. These are not the same, from my perspective. I think a good teacher is someone who can see what level you're at, and advice you accordingly. This goes for all sorts of things of course.

It is important for beginners to understand that to get good at something, one has to put in a lot of work. You have to enjoy the journey. The road is the destination, for me.

^this, all the way. (And even more so if this hypothetical aspiring writer cares about commercial viability.)

Of course there is a lot of bad advice, or feedback that may be true but isn’t helpful to an aspiring writer at that particular stage in their exploration... even so, you can’t learn much of anything in a vacuum, so best to jump in and learn to sort out the helpful from the unhelpful, and still stay afloat.

 

[The Big Peat]

A colleague at work who's also a writer asked me the other day how I felt about following the rules. I was perplexed. What rules? Grammar? Don't use the same word too often? Write every day? One of those horse manure "12 things you MUST do" internet lists?

My reply was "I don't think its important to follow the rules but its important to know why you're not following them." Because

a) That's just good advice.
b) It was something I could say other than wtf are you on about.

We talked on and she admitted to having been frozen by the 'rules' for a bit so she now ignored them. The rules? Where are these bloody rules? Who had she been talking to?

Anyway, this is one of the natural paths that leads from the current morass of advice. Confusion and inability to progress.

So yes, I agree that all this writing advice is frequently harmful. I've long thought this.


But... I don't think I could do without it. I don't think I would have progressed as a writer in the way I have without it. Lists, rants, posts here, posts elsewhere, writing help books; I've been through it all and most of its helped in some tiny way.

It's not the easiest tool in the world to use at times but its the best tool I've got. Sometimes its misleading but as Toby says, you've got to know when to ignore criticism. You've got to know when to say "Not for me". Which is difficult. But most worthwhile activities include difficulties and there's very few, if any, springs of information from which you can drink willy-nilly. Discernment is a part of life.

And virtually all the information is there. It's not like writing advice caters to one kind of writer alone. The path for pretty much everyone is out there, it about finding it. And yes, some of those paths lead in opposite directions. Some of the advice seems mutually exclusive. Again, discernment.


My conclusion would be that writing advice is like a medicine. Too little will do nothing. Too much will make you very sick - maybe even kill you. The right amount will change things dramatically for the better. Unfortunately, nobody's put the right dosage on the bottle. But you can find that dosage and if you overdose, its your choice as to whether it merely makes you sick and you recover, or whether it kills you as a writer. Your choice and no one else's.

p.s. "I like this! This worked and that worked" is still good critique advice, PB is dead right there. We need external validification for what works as well as what doesn't. And speaking of the external...

p.p.s. I would rather risk discouraging a writer by pointing out what I do not think works early than let them go on, convinced by their genius, only to have people tell them it doesn't work when they've finished the project. Most of the time, the former will hurt far less than the latter.

 

[Venusian Broon]

The only advice I (usually) offer to a Would-Be Author is:

"Write the story you want to tell, in the manner you want to tell it. If you are pleased with the final product - you've succeeded!"

I don't think you can win Cathbad, like Jo stated, it just depends on the person asking for your advice.

I think if I'd asked you when I was right at the start of actively making time for writing (as opposed to daydreaming about it and thinking 'I'll start one day) and you'd told me that, I'd be pretty discouraged!

To give the right advice for someone, you'd really need to know their motivations for wanting to write and what they see as successful writing/publishing. If you don't know that, I think it's absolutely fine to state your beliefs and opinions, plastered with honest health warnings and 'but, other people do it this way...'

Anyway, experts pah! who needs 'em...

 

[Cathbad]

People I respect on Chrons have given me a spectrum of opinons on my style and the more a writer gets those kind of opinions, the more data they have to work with over what works and what doesn't.

Truth! Because I don't put up my writing to be critiqued here (I recognize my immaturity on that issue), a lot of Chroners might not know how much I've learned from them! I read the critiques, and learn a lot!

 

[Cathbad]

I don't know. I am an aspiring writer, but before I can learn how to sell, I have to learn how to write well. These are not the same, from my perspective. I think a good teacher is someone who can see what level you're at, and advice you accordingly. This goes for all sorts of things of course.

Well put! Perhaps one should simply choose one or a few mentors? The plethora of conflicting advice out there is overwhelming!

 

[Cathbad]

My reply was "I don't think its important to follow the rules but its important to know why you're not following them." Because

a) That's just good advice.
b) It was something I could say other than wtf are you on about.

But... I don't think I could do without it. I don't think I would have progressed as a writer in the way I have without it. Lists, rants, posts here, posts elsewhere, writing help books; I've been through it all and most of its helped in some tiny way.

My conclusion would be that writing advice is like a medicine. Too little will do nothing. Too much will make you very sick - maybe even kill you. The right amount will change things dramatically for the better. Unfortunately, nobody's put the right dosage on the bottle. But you can find that dosage and if you overdose, its your choice as to whether it merely makes you sick and you recover, or whether it kills you as a writer. Your choice and no one else's.

Wonderfully put!

 

[Cathbad]

To give the right advice for someone, you'd really need to know their motivations for wanting to write and what they see as successful writing/publishing.

Agreed.

I won't (read "can't") give marketing advice. I write for the pleasure of writing, and hope to give a few a bit of pleasure reading what I write. I'm absolutely convinced, that if I wanted to write to make a living, I'd have been discouraged long time ago!

 

[Cathbad]

I come from the RPG (pen and paper type) community. I don't believe there is another group of people who write more - or publish less! I've read some wonderful works over the years, that never made it to print. I'm glad I had that pleasure, and lament so many did not.

That's why I was so encouraged to discover - just a half dozen years ago - that self-publishing had become easy and affordable!

 

[Cathbad]

(Sorry for the delay in my responses- it was Doctor's Office Visitation Day.)

 

[Brian G Turner]

I was trying to think of an analogy to this yesterday. It went something on the lines of writing "rules" being like tourist attractions in another country. When you visit that country, there are a lot of attractions to visit, and you won't be able to take them in all at once.

Alternatively, you do have the option to ignore them completely and go off the beaten track.

The trouble is, where the writer goes is where their readers go.

And if a writer tries to lead people into a wilderness where nothing much really happens, or makes sense, or simply isn't very interesting, then those readers will necessarily become annoyed - not least if they've paid good money to be with that writer.

Especially for those things they might reasonably expect. Which can be anything from emotional development arcs to proper spelling and grammar.

So IMO a good writer is one who takes the best of those "rules" to fit their own personal style and ideas, so that they can give those readers - those tourists of the imagination - something intelligible and exciting to engage them.

Every reader will want to experience those a way that works to their own personal tastes, and not all writers will be able to do that for them. But that's usually fine because there are usually writers to cater for every reading preference.

As for discouraging writers - if you're going to write, you'll write whatever the world says, because it's something you are driven to do.

2c.

 

[Cathbad]

So IMO a good writer is one who takes the best of those "rules" to fit their own personal style and ideas, so that they can give those readers - those tourists of the imagination - something intelligible and exciting to engage them.

But that's usually fine because there are usually writers to cater for every reading preference.

True, dat!