This Thing About Advice...

[Lumens]

Perhaps one should simply choose one or a few mentors? The plethora of conflicting advice out there is overwhelming!

It's OK to be confused now and then. Just play the long game and keep an open mind. If you are lucky enough to have more than one mentor, stick with it until your gut feeling wins over and lets you choose. Whatever sticks with you in the long term is normally the better advice - until you get naturally good at it and don't need any specific instructions to guide you.

 

[The Big Peat]

Well put! Perhaps one should simply choose one or a few mentors? The plethora of conflicting advice out there is overwhelming!

But if you rely solely on a handful of people, you increase the chances that everyone will be telling you the wrong thing for you to do.

There's a lot to be said for having a few people you really rely on. As you say, it reduces confusion. It's also a natural progression. You meet a lot of people, you find the people whose world views jibe well with you, you pay the most attention to them.

Sooner or later though, that small group of people with the same world view will be saying the same thing and, sooner or later, they'll all be saying the wrong thing for you.

By all means, pick an inner circle that you rely on first and foremost. But I think it best to still access the plethora.

Although, if someone really doesn't do well with multiple options, then I guess maybe a few mentors works better.

 

[Luiglin]

I don't offer advice because I'm not qualified to offer any. I can give an honest opinion but would struggle with true critique as I can't stand saying anything negative - even if it's constructive. I've been on the end of constructive negative critique and despite it being useful it also is a real dampener to creativity.

 

[Cathbad]

We seem to feel the same there, @Luiglin .

 

[Luiglin]

We seem to feel the same there, @Luiglin .

Definitely

 

[Phyrebrat]

I follow your sentiments, But we learn from our mistakes, not when people massage our sensibilities.

And your opinion is valid in any crit that's been asked for. There's no qualification in how to crit, it's all based on your opinion.

I always think when people ask for crits, that's what they're after; your opinion. Some of us correct grammar, some of us correct logic, some of us correct characterisation but it's all more grist for the mill.

I think you both are missing the point that by not offering your opinion - even a couple of sentences - you might be missing out delivering some crucial food for thought for the author.

Finally - and not to labour the point - I write a genre that isn't really the focus here in Chrons. However, the advice in crits I've been given from SFF experts/partisans has been invaluable and outstandingly objective.

So go for it

pH

 

[Dan Jones]

We seem to feel the same there, @Luiglin .

Definitely

If you both feel the same way about these things, then surely that's a green light for you both to critique each other's work in the full view that you understand each other's perspective.

One of the other key things about critiquing and beta-ing is you need to find whose feedback works for you; a like-minded soul, so to speak. That's not to say you need to find someone who thinks everything you write is fabulous, but somebody whose criticisms you feel come from an honest place and which resonate with you.

You guys sound remarkably similar in your outlook with respect to this, which means I think that you'd probably be good foil for each other's work.

 

[Luiglin]

If you both feel the same way about these things, then surely that's a green light for you both to critique each other's work in the full view that you understand each other's perspective.

One of the other key things about critiquing and beta-ing is you need to find whose feedback works for you; a like-minded soul, so to speak. That's not to say you need to find someone who thinks everything you write is fabulous, but somebody whose criticisms you feel come from an honest place and which resonate with you.

You guys sound remarkably similar in your outlook with respect to this, which means I think that you'd probably be good foil for each other's work.

We'd be too polite. It'd be like two English Gents coming to a door and spending an hour saying back and forth, 'No, after you.'

 

[Cathbad]

We'd be too polite. It'd be like two English Gents coming to a door and spending an hour saying back and forth, 'No, after you.'

LOL ...probably.

 

[Lumens]

I might come across as patronising here, but I really don't mean to if so.

I've been on the end of constructive negative critique and despite it being useful it also is a real dampener to creativity.

Do you mean inspiration instead of creativity? Creativity is easy, just switch off all critical thought and go for it.

Inspiration comes and goes, and can, in my opinion, be learnt. It takes time of course, but you can look at it as you would execise. In this light, taking some hits and getting up again is going to benefit you in the long term. The main point is to keep going, when you can of course.

 

[Luiglin]

I might come across as patronising here, but I really don't mean to if so.


Do you mean inspiration instead of creativity? Creativity is easy, just switch off all critical thought and go for it.

Inspiration comes and goes, and can, in my opinion, be learnt. It takes time of course, but you can look at it as you would execise. In this light, taking some hits and getting up again is going to benefit you in the long term. The main point is to keep going, when you can of course.

No, I meant creativity. You put out what you believe is good and then someone tears into it. That boots my creativity into next week.

Please don't take that as a negative to anyone who provides critiques. It just takes time for me to get my head round it

 

[thaddeus6th]

Sometimes, people struggle to take constructive criticism. Although I'm rubbish at some parts of writing (especially marketing) I've always quite enjoyed constructive criticism. It's one of the best ways to improve (I'll be slightly rewriting the start of the trilogy's finale to reduce the character number following useful comments in that regard in Traitor's Prize reviews).

Every constructive criticism isn't a red flag of wrong, it's a way to address a weakness or improve a strength to become a better writer.

 

[Cathbad]

Every constructive criticism isn't a red flag of wrong, it's a way to address a weakness or improve a strength to become a better writer.

That's a good attitude.

Younger writers though tend to get discouraged by criticism - not all, but some. I saw too many of them quit trying.

(Another - bigger - discourager was the process of trying to get your work accepted for publishing.)

 

[Jo Zebedee]

(Another - bigger - discourager was the process of trying to get your work accepted for publishing.)

This is a big one for me. I know I'm quite a tough critiquer (I'm much tougher in one to ones than on the crits board, too) and I'm very aware of not wanting to squash people. I will usually try to find a positive somewhere. But...!

Sending your work out and getting no response is an absolute killer of confidence. Getting only forms. Getting no feedback to tell you what is good and what is not.

So, I'd rather be tough in a crit and give that person a fighting chance of an acceptance or full readthrough later.

I've done 5 crits this week:

One, to an experienced writer who I'm well used to critting and being critted by, getting a full book readthrough (very slowly - sorry, oh patient one, life is busy...) - they will get my comments warts and all. They're a good enough writer to know what to ignore and they know my writing well and will know when I can be safely be ignored (I stink at description, don't like a slow pace but if I tell you your characterisation is off, it might be relevant.)

One, to another experienced writer, albeit a little less, looking to sub. Their piece was good. It would have been very easy to say nothing - but I felt the opening lacked the wow to attract an agent and I told them so and discussed why and brainstormed what might help. No favours would have been done otherwise.

One to another experienced writer who I know well. It didn't work for me, it had errors. I called it as I seen it knowing they'd prefer that.

Then to two newer writers. One I felt I was over critical of in retrospect and I went back with detail of what I did like in it. The other - they're getting ready to sub, I thought there were some fundamental problems within an otherwise good piece and gave a measured crit.

Now, each person approached me for a crit, either one to one or on a crits board. If you ask me for a crit, you will get one and it will be honest. And I know how hard that can be - I've had crits here that brought me to tears, big soft eejit that I am. But I do no one any favours if I don't provide what they asked for: a critical analysis. Because it is better here and now than from the pros.

 

[Cathbad]

And I know how hard that can be - I've had crits here that brought me to tears, big soft eejit that I am. But I do no one any favours if I don't provide what they asked for: a critical analysis. Because it is better here and now than from the pros.

Agreed. If someone asks for a critique and you agree to do it, you need to give the best one you can. And the writer just needs to brace themselves for the response - they did ask for it.

(One of the reasons I don't as for it. )

 

[The Big Peat]

That's a good attitude.

Younger writers though tend to get discouraged by criticism - not all, but some. I saw too many of them quit trying.

(Another - bigger - discourager was the process of trying to get your work accepted for publishing.)

You can't find a system that works for everyone. You can't save everyone from themselves.

And ultimately, there is no way to becoming the best writer a person can be without taking criticism.

I say this as someone who got discouraged out of a lot of hobbies when young (mainly by myself). It sucks. But I do not think its part of life you can stop. And for a lot of people, its a part of life that they look back and realised needed to happen.

If there's people out there who know they just want to write and share, and not get caught up in all the angst and constant improvement, then kudos and I hope it goes well for those people. Knowing what you want out of life is a hell of a thing. And I don't want to rain down on those people and appreciate it can be difficult for them when a lot of writers are caught up in self-improvement mode.

But - if a writer asks for help and gives no further cues - then I am going to assume they are willing to take criticism. Because I think it's the most likely scenario in the circs. Because it's how I'd want people to treat me. If I break someone's dreams? I'd feel bad, but ultimately they asked me to take that shot and someone else would have done it if not me. Each writer controls whether they follow their own dreams.

Mind you, we're talking specific criticism here. Not leaving up a list on the internet saying "If you don't write for two hours a day - quit! If you don't read three book a week - quit! If you don't write only about things you've done - quit!". Which I feel is what your original post was getting at.

 

[Lumens]

I would never tell anyone to quit writing. Take a break - yes, maybe under certain circumstances. But quit outright - never. Even if I think their writing is under par. Especially then. Anyone who tells you to quit can safely be ignored.

Edit: @The Big Peat I realise you were probably exaggerating it a little.

 

[The Big Peat]

The lists of advice saying "Do this or quit"? Wish I was exaggerating. The language isn't quite as blunt but yes, there are bits of writing advice out there that basically say that. They're not the norm but they do exist.

Also, I'm not talking specific advice to specific people there. I'm talking about pieces of advice put up there for whoever reads them.

 

[Lumens]

Oh, really? It is starting to make sense to me now. For the record, I would rather trust people here than loose cannon bloggers with more opinions than sense.

Nobody in their right mind would tell Stephen Hawking to quit writing. Maybe he shouldn't start at a professional boxing career, but that is another matter...

It's harder to deal with the inner critic. Learn how to ignore that one, and the external ones won't stand a chance!

 

[Phyrebrat]

It's harder to deal with the inner critic. Learn how to ignore that one, and the external ones won't stand a chance!

Yes, indeed. The inner judge is a terrible, terrible master. It's chilling when you get older and realise trivial childhood occurences - or rather trivial in the grand scheme of your life - plant an insidious seed that becomes a lens through which you see everything. It has me really careful at work because I'd hate to say or do something that would further marginalise or destroy the young people I work with.

pH