This Thing About Advice...

[EJDeBrun]

Maybe because I come from animation, TV and film, but personally, I think criticism is a necessary evil in the creative process. If the goal of what someone is working on is to communicate to another someone (the reader) then I think it's important to test things out to make sure the work is doing its job. This is a nerve wracking and it takes a certain fortitude to get through it. I sent my chapter 1 to two readers recently and both came back to me with the same notes about setting confusions. It was a pain to wait for their feedback. It was even harder to take. But I reworked the chapters and sent them to NEW beta-readers and got excellent feedback from both.

But I also think of my work as less to do with myself and more its own thing. It exists outside of me, so when people critique it, I really only take a hit in the areas that I feel like I can control. Mainly writing skill, which I frankly admit that I am not that good at. Since I know I'm not good at it, I take a small glee over the fact that anyone gets what I'm talking about at all. It's not much but it helps.

Also my alpha reader is PICKY. Nitpicky to the extreme. I'm so used to at this point, other critiques don't hit me nearly as hard. Again, maybe it's because it's stuff I know I can fix if I just put enough work into it.

For my own critiques (and I've only given 2, sorry @Luiglin if what I wrote for you seemed harsh. I just really like the concept and think you can really mold it into something great. @jo, I figured you were a pro and would appreciate something straight up. Again to both of you, I don't mean to be harsh or discouraging!) It's actually a nerve wracking process because it IS so easy to cause offense and be discouraging (especially over the internet). This is also why I only look at things on the chrons forums that relate directly to the opening chapter. I think that openings could use as many new perspectives as possible to give it the extra oomph, so I try to lend my perspective if I feel it'll be appropriate. All for the sake of helping. But of course it could easily hurt as well.

Creative egos are delicate like sugar sculptures. A simple touch can make them shatter. So I think it's good to work on mental toughness along with everything else. And advice from friends might seem harsh at first, but have nothing on the cruelties of the real world.

My two cents.

PS: I would like to specify this is about constructive criticism. Definitely not talking about those annoying trolls that like to rain on everyone's parade. They should just stay in the muck under a bridge that leaks rainwater.

 

[Cathbad]

Creative egos are delicate like sugar sculptures. A simple touch can make them shatter. So I think it's good to work on mental toughness along with everything else. And advice from friends might seem harsh at first, but have nothing on the cruelties of the real world.

This. This is so true. (And shame on you for making it public! )

The "advice" I am (mostly) talking about is that which is generic in nature. Yes, those gawd-awful lists on the Internet, but also that sometimes given in person. As has been said: "This is the way it's done" I see as often detrimental, while "Here are some options" is helpful.

We Chroners can easily see that there is no one "true and tested model" of success for all in the writing industry. But there have been successful models. Pointing these out (""Look at the way Rawlings did it...") can be helpful, but pointing out a method as the one a writer should take ("You need to do it the way Rawlings did it...") can easily lead to discouragement.

I also think unrequested advice is bad. Always. "You're a writer? The you need to follow Flemming's Writing Guide...". Critiques, when asked for, need to be tough, but they also need to include some encouragement. Again, I'm mostly talking about the new or unsuccessful writer.

 

[EJDeBrun]

This. This is so true. (And shame on you for making it public! )

The "advise" I am (mostly) talking about is that which is generic in nature. Yes, those gawd-awful lists on the Internet, but also that sometimes given in person. As has been said: "This is the way it's done" I see as often detrimental, while "Here are some options" is helpful.

We Chroners can easily see that there is no one "true and tested model" of success for all in the writing industry. But there have been successful models. Pointing these out (""Look at the way Rawlings did it...") can be helpful, but pointing out a method as the one a writer should take ("You need to do it the way Rawlings did it...") can easily lead to discouragement.

I also think unrequested advice is bad. Always. "You're a writer? The you need to follow Flemming's Writing Guide...". Critiques, when asked for, need to be tough, but they also need to include some encouragement. Again, I'm mostly talking about the new or unsuccessful writer.

Ah, yes. Well, when it comes to writing advice, I think it's good to look at rules just to KNOW, you know? Give a framework. But when it comes to putting in practice, let me quote the immortal Captain Barbossa: "The Code is more what you'd call 'guidelines' than actual rules."

 

[Luiglin]

For my own critiques (and I've only given 2, sorry @Luiglin if what I wrote for you seemed harsh. I just really like the concept and think you can really mold it into something great. @jo, I figured you were a pro and would appreciate something straight up. Again to both of you, I don't mean to be harsh or discouraging!) It's actually a nerve wracking process because it IS so easy to cause offense and be discouraging (especially over the internet). This is also why I only look at things on the chrons forums that relate directly to the opening chapter. I think that openings could use as many new perspectives as possible to give it the extra oomph, so I try to lend my perspective if I feel it'll be appropriate. All for the sake of helping. But of course it could easily hurt as well.

Please, no need to apologise. I put my piece up there to be picked at. That's the whole point. I just tend to have to then leave it for a bit for it to sink in before I can get back to tweak further.

If I didn't, I'd really mess it up

 

[Jo Zebedee]

I write a blog with writing stuff in it but it's mostly my musings and never intended to be gospel. I will take a note if this thread and keep it in mind if I ever decide to become the great goddess of writing!

@EJDeBrun - I'm pretty tough these days and am unlikely to take offence at even the harshest crit, I hope. I do have moments of doubt but usually have good people to wail to and gain perspective from if I get a bit silly!

 

[EJDeBrun]

@Jo Zebedee and @Luiglin. Thank you for the reassurances that I haven't caused mortal offense. It really is difficult to know what to do, especially when you're the New Kid on the Block.

And Jo, I agree. I also blog mainly about the creative process. I also give movie and book reviews, mainly just to have something to talk about, but also because talking about them help me establish what I want to do with my own creative work. But I don't think my opinion is the only thing that matters at all. And people are free to like or hate what they choose, of course.

Having said that, there is one thing I will say, which is that I am pretty harsh when it comes to what I consider to be basic story principles. I do think it's important to know the rubric for storytelling. Just like I would expect an artist to have some concept of anatomy before trying to paint a portrait, I expect storytellers to at least KNOW what the structure of story IS. I deplore the fact that a lot of writing pages don't touch on this subject very much. Maybe they assume it's a given? But I do think it's important to know. That's where "writing advice" pages can be useful.

 

[Lumens]

This thread is actually inspiring me to put something up for critique.

Also, the things I say are from the viewpoint of an unpublished amateur. I don't have any experience to speak from, and I don't know what my weaknesses are. Soon to be changed, hopefully.

 

[Jo Zebedee]

This thread is actually inspiring me to put something up for critique.

Also, the things I say are from the viewpoint of an unpublished amateur. I don't have any experience to speak from, and I don't know what my weaknesses are. Soon to be changed, hopefully.

This is an important thing. I vaguely remember an author rather self importantly talking about the concept of 'hitting up' where published authors' feedback is taken as having too much importance. I still feel like a novice - and yet I lecture in writing, do many panels, and have 5 books published - and would hate to be seen as anything more than that.

@EJDeBrun - never admit to being a reviewer! We'll all be asking you if you fancy....?

 

[Cathbad]

I also blog mainly about the creative process. I also give movie and book reviews, mainly just to have something to talk about, but also because talking about them help me establish what I want to do with my own creative work.

Well, be sure to list your new blog posts on our What did you blog about today? thread, so I can share it on Facebook!

 

[EJDeBrun]

@EJDeBrun - never admit to being a reviewer! We'll all be asking you if you fancy....?

I only review on my blog no one visits and my opinion is SO irrelevant I feel pretty free to speak openly. (And despite this I still hold back a ridiculous amount because the VFX/animation industry is SO small and I can't throw anything in the direction of film without hitting someone I might know and be offended. Alas. Tiny industry)

Also I dislike so much out there, I think I'd be the most annoying person in the world to talk movies with.

@Cathbad Maybe I will sometimes, but I post entries so frequently I think I would end up being even more annoying than I am now. And none of it is... what's the word for it... any good? hahaha.

 

[Jo Zebedee]

Well, be sure to list your new blog posts on our What did you blog about today? thread, so I can share it on Facebook!

Do! We love blogs to mosey around

 

[tinkerdan]

One problem I've encountered with 'advice' is that the advice is given as though it is an axiom, when in fact it's a guideline that might include a number grammar rules. However, because it is approached as an axiom it is usually lacking in any real substance to back it up. After all--it's a truism that everyone knows about. This is where it is important to give examples and despite what I've been advised, I find the best example is to show the person what it would work like in a portion of their writing.

That way it highlights where you are referring to what you are talking to and shows what you would do to make it work according to those guidelines. However for some reason many of those handing out advice don't manage to do this.

It begs the question of whether they know the deeper mechanics involved or if they are just parroting something someone said or some advice given them by someone else.

I love advice--with examples--that way my judgment on the matter can be founded in what I see rather than my best guess at what they are trying to get across.

 

[AlexH]

Sometimes, people struggle to take constructive criticism. Although I'm rubbish at some parts of writing (especially marketing) I've always quite enjoyed constructive criticism. It's one of the best ways to improve (I'll be slightly rewriting the start of the trilogy's finale to reduce the character number following useful comments in that regard in Traitor's Prize reviews).

Every constructive criticism isn't a red flag of wrong, it's a way to address a weakness or improve a strength to become a better writer.

Same here - I love a good critique, and I really enjoy the process of making a story better. Critiques often help my creativity, as I come up with ideas I hadn't thought of before - whether that's due to the critique pushing me in that direction or not, I'm not always sure.

As for advice, there is plenty out there that hasn't done much for me, but also plenty where I'm very thankful the author has shared their knowledge - David Farland and Damon Knight are two I go back to. You say "(new) authors" Cathbad - I've been writing for over 10 years now, but still consider myself a new author/writer. And I've only regularly started reading advice in the past year or so - I guess because I've gone from writing purely for fun, to taking it more seriously.

 

[Steve Harrison]

It took me a long time to realise that all writing advice is really only an opinion based on the giver's experience (or, perhaps more often, something they blindly believe and repeat). Once that penny dropped, writing became a lot easier.

And if I find any of these opinions interesting - which I often do - I test them to see if they might work for me.

 

[Cathbad]

And if I find any of these opinions interesting - which I often do - I test them to see if they might work for me.

Now, that's a good policy!

 

[night_wrtr]

It took me a long time to realise that all writing advice is really only an opinion based on the giver's experience (or, perhaps more often, something they blindly believe and repeat). Once that penny dropped, writing became a lot easier.

And if I find any of these opinions interesting - which I often do - I test them to see if they might work for me.

I am with you. This works with both generic advice and critiques. I've not jumped into critiquing here, but I have elsewhere in a couple of formats previously and while it can cause a little panic, it is quite helpful. Knowing, like you said, that they are based on personal experience does indeed help. I think I like that aspect of critiquing most, honestly. Seeing something from a different point of view that could spot light something that I missed as a writer. Even if I don't take the advice or feedback, it might at least draw my attention to something that needs help in some form.

Also, the things I say are from the viewpoint of an unpublished amateur. I don't have any experience to speak from, and I don't know what my weaknesses are. Soon to be changed, hopefully.

Same here, but we learn by doing, right? You still have experience though. Anything you've ever written or read counts! That all goes into the resume of an opinionated reader/writer.

 

[Lumens]

Same here, but we learn by doing, right? You still have experience though. Anything you've ever written or read counts! That all goes into the resume of an opinionated reader/writer.

Maybe I should come clean and say that my teaching experience (apart from having been a replacement teacher in the past) come from martial arts.

I have slowly come to realise a couple of things from that experience:

1. All people learn in a different way, and it may take a while to work out how things click with them, if ever.

2. Giving too much advice to beginners will confuse them and turn them away, even if they seem to be able to handle it on the face of it.

As a more experienced practitioner it can be easy to forget that somebody may actually be way outside of their comfort zone when they come to you. Everybody behaves differently in that situation, so you can't really take how they act and what they say as straight forward fact. They may just be putting on a brave face. It's only after you get to know them better that you can teach them more effectively. Nobody will learn to defend themselves within a few weeks, or even months. I believe many beginners fail to understand this, or they don't consider it, no matter what they tell you during the first sessions. Only one in a thousand make it to a level where they are reasonably confindent (what you could call "black belt", or publishing - to bring the analogy roughly back on topic).

Critique wise, I can tell when I don't like something but I can't always put my finger on it. That's mainly why I don't feel the need to be too helpful just yet. I'd love to help but I think that I may just do more harm than good.

 

[Luiglin]

“...writers are often the worst judges of what they have written.”
- Stephen King

 

[Cathbad]

“...writers are often the worst judges of what they have written.”
- Stephen King

Ain't dat da truth!

 

[AnyaKimlin]

The one thing my experience with the BBC taught me was the value of criticism but also the need to protect your work. I was lumbered with a producer and team who couldn't take criticism and never gave it as a result. The lack of criticism meant nobody grew and improved. In someways I knew less at the end than at the beginning.

My disaster of a calling card taught me also the value of sticking to my guns when something is important.

On Tuesday my North of Scotland wanted me to change this phrasing:
Maureen Newlove phoned me like I had asked her to do.

They wanted the like to become as.

Only then the guy from Yorkshire kept putting the like in all his suggestions. My story is set in the North West and to my ears the like is natural. Clearly it is in the East as well

As a result the like will be left.

Learning to take the criticism, deal with editors and other people is part of the job of writing. If you're writing for your own consumption then it doesn't matter what anyone says. But ultimately the work will have my name on it and not theirs.