Useful weapons you'll get away with carrying?

[Overread]

Just a few more points to consider:
1) Hiding weapons. You can carry knives, blades and other weapons with you quite easily provided that you don't look dodgy. A normal looking person in a suit walking down the road is unlikely to get any police attention unless they've got a very clear outline of a large weapon sticking through their clothes - ergo that their concealed weapon is visible.
Racial profiling/dress/mannerisms/the area itself etc... Without going into detail these are all factors (and more) which (by training/instinct/experience/media influence) are going to affect how a person is appraised by others; thus also influence how officers might well react to that person.

If you watch any police chase TV shows you can often see how police might stop a car for something simple (running a light; broken light bulb) and its the attitude/mannerisms of the cars occupants that prompts a further search and thus revealing drugs/weapons/more car based crime etc...

2) Walking sticks and even long umbrellas are not that popular today. Even in the countryside the cane/stick is hardly used as widely as it once was. Fashion has changed so I'd wager that today you'd stand out far more. People with injured legs tend to have those standard medical crutches (that click with every step); walkers/hikers tend to use those walking aids more like skiing sticks (so there's one weapon potential); Long umbrellas have given way to flimsy extending ones (though considering that police batons are extending as well you could have a potential weapon there).

3) Job/tasks/profession/hobby. If you're an outdoorsman you might well get away even if stopped, if you've got a larger blade or such provided that you can provide ample justification for the reason. Yes you're carrying a hand scythe because you just bought it to go and scythe down some reedbed. Of course such encounters should be logged and where you are is going to come into question so its only going to work in a limited situation.

4) Cases/bags. In today's world most people don't have their bag checked. There's a handful of major tourist attractions in big urban areas that have inspects and many shows/festivals often have them as well; but in general you can walk around with whatever you want in a bag and no one cares the least. It is, again, a case of attitude - if you're lurking around, looking shifty, nervous, acting strange and also behave strange if approached - that sends up warnings.
Warnings can even come if you're in a line to enter somewhere and discover (at that point) that there are bag checks and you suddenly leave (because the average person doesn't care - it might annoy them, but they don't care).


So even in a country like the UK where you don't have the same permissions to carry; and where there are illegal items to carry (I recall that knuckle dusters are illegal?) you can still carry quite a bit. How you act and behave; where you are; etc... these are all far more likely things to come into play in catching the eye of the law.

This comes down to a lot of factors, including the amount of practice, the amount of experience, but also just the personality of the practitioner.

Likewise for, say, first aid. I've known some first aiders who have, despite all the training in the world, panicked at their first real-life situation, and others who just let the training step up and do its job.

Very true, I'd also note that a lot of people get first aid training through their work. They get a 1 day (or half day) session and quick fire test and that's it. You might get a refresher in a year or every few years (depending on your nature of work). In my view this gives people a small level of basic confidence, but is no good at all for any kind of emergency situation; the individual has had so little practice that whilst they get some of the basics they are far more likely to not know what do to.



I also recall some scathing/informative articles/videos that i saw a long while back about the difference between martial arts training/self defence and actual fighting. One point that was often raised is that in training you're often repeating a set of moves over and over with the attacker attacking in a fixed or limited manner whilst in reality an attacker is more likely to use moves/positions that are non-standard; thus many self defence classes are not going to leave you well equipped to actually battle.
I believe the main focus though is that many attacks occur on people who look vulnerable to begin with. Having self defence classes gives people more confidence which affects how they conduct themselves in public; that in itself can help them far more so (assuming that they are not going through dangerous areas etc...) in avoiding potential trouble.
And again it comes down to how much training a person has; if they only get very basic experience chances are they are not much better off save for their mental attitude (confidence).

 

[Vladd67]

Another thing with martial arts is which style is it? Back when I was in my 20s, in the last century, I briefly took up karate, English full contact karate to be precise.Thanks to the training and the sparring you quickly got used to be hit, now I decided at this time to try out a new Kung fu class that had started nearby, this was non contact. I remember the instructor asked me to throw a punch at him, so I snapped a punch at him aiming as we did in full contact about an inch pass the jawline, he deflected it but I will always remember the slightly panicked look in his eye, the trouble is you can have all the training but if no one has ever hit you before when it happens it is such a shock you are instantly at a disadvantage. Also some people have a few lessons and it gives them a false sense of security, they take silly risks, walking through areas they would previously have avoided for example because they think they can protect themselves.

 

[Amelia Faulkner]

Yeah there is literally no point in non-contact martial arts. That teaches you feck all and gives you false confidence.

Full contact or gtfo because when people say "martial arts will give you false confidence" and "martial arts won't teach you to handle a real fight" they're talking about (and likely don't realise it) all these ridiculous non-contact 'martial arts' classes going around.

A proper full-contact martial arts class will teach you to think on your feet, analyse your situation as it evolves, to pay attention to your environment, to de-escalate wherever possible, and to remain calm in the face of stressful or dangerous situation.

But then we get back to everything that was wrong with Iron Fist

 

[Mouse]

In my martial arts classes we used weapons (my sensei always said if you come up against anybody wielding a knife, you will be cut). We also sparred after all the formal stuff so that we'd get used to the adrenaline. I once punched someone in the face (accidentally, I was excepting her to block/move!) and she ran from the room crying - I felt awful, but yeah, she was not cut out for it.

 

[Toby Frost]

While we're on this subject (sort of), I have a related question: is there a standard quick way of describing the basic knees-bent, weight lowered, side-on to the enemy stance seen in a lot of martial arts? I remember seeing the phrase "a wrestler's crouch" used somewhere, but to me that sounds like being almost on the floor. The best thing I can think of using only English words is "a boxer's stance".

 

[Overread]

Toby I always think that for things like that its good to have a formal name, but if you're going to use them then a weapons class/martial arts class early in the book helps a LOT. Even a more detailed normal fight scene - the combatant remembering his lessons of old and going into more detail about what the moves mean.

That can really help a reader identify how and what is going on without having to leave a book. Describing a high-guard with a longblade weapon etc... Especially since many terms evolve over time so a stance and pose in one age might vary a lot in another when different weapons/armours might have come into the scene - subtleties that a casually researching reader won't find,

 

[R.T James]

Just curious. How many have been in a street brawl here? I see martial arts thrown out quite a bit... but I am just curious to how many of you have had to use it?

I lived in a really crappy city and got into fights regularly. I have no training in proper technique only the ways to judge thier movements and access the stituation at hand.

Just curious if anybody's been I a stituation where they needed to fight?

It's interesting seeing what people are saying, theorizing, compared to what I went through.

 

[Wiglaf]

A small gun and hoping to not get caught or boots with steel or composite toes seem to be the best options. I can open a knife one handed in my pocket, but it still takes time. Hands and feet would be quicker and effective for a martial arts expert. Guns have range; unranked weapons are at a disadvantage. Acting unfazed can keep them wondering what you might have. That is what I tried last weekend*.

* rough weekend -- wife crashed the truck, threatened at day job, employee no showed, two masked robbers with a gun at night job (bastards spilt my coffee), and had a crazy dude wielding a knife back at my day job.

 

[Overread]

Don't forget most of what we've posted has assumed a person wanting to carry weapon whilst also remaining within the law or at least who wish to "get away" with it if asked/challenged by police.

If you take that latter risk away or diminish its impact then a person can be far more heavily armed.
It might prove worth to research the criminal system as not every challenge results in prison time. Many might only come with fines/community service/similar style notifications. Ergo a punishment, but one which can lose its sting - esp if the character starts or develops a lack of respect for authority.

Plus that all assumes a person who is thinking about being caught. I was in an interesting chat with someone who said that things like the death penalty don't stop crimes because most people who commit crimes do not assume they'll be caught. It's either a spur of the moment thing where they are not thinking far ahead; or its a planned crime where they assume they won't get caught.
So again if your character doesn't think they'll be caught they might well carry more. Heck just ask yourself how many times police have stopped and searched you. I am willing to bet for most who have not grown up in a bad area, that the only times will have been at festivals/areas of high alert/sports grounds etc... Ergo venues rather than around the normal highstreets and towns.

Plus we've all been thinking big urban areas; get out into the countryside and you are pretty much able to do what you want provided its not called in by other people.

 

[Lumens]

Just curious. How many have been in a street brawl here? I see martial arts thrown out quite a bit... but I am just curious to how many of you have had to use it?

I lived in a really crappy city and got into fights regularly. I have no training in proper technique only the ways to judge thier movements and access the stituation at hand.

Just curious if anybody's been I a stituation where they needed to fight?

It's interesting seeing what people are saying, theorizing, compared to what I went through.

We are really diverging from the thread topic now, but yes - martial artists (even those who do full contact) will think in a different way from a street thug. Rather than thinking specific techniques or tactics, they tend to have a more "I will mess you up!" approach. Nothing to lose, maybe... I really don't know and won't pretend that I do.

I have not been in any street fights in my adult life. I have been hit a couple of times, but not hard enough to phaze me. I am not macho though, I will run away from or avoid any situation if I can help it.

 

[Overread]

We are really diverging from the thread topic now, but yes - martial artists (even those who do full contact) will think in a different way from a street thug. Rather than thinking specific techniques or tactics, they tend to have a more "I will mess you up!" approach. Nothing to lose, maybe... I really don't know and won't pretend that I do.

It's not just that, someone with actual fighting experience is more likely to be aware of their physical limitations and more accustomed to pain during the fight. So they are likely to be more open to shrugging off some minor injuries. A cut or a scrape or even a bash or a bruise won't phase them because they've already been hit and know what to expect. That's without factoring in adrenaline and any potential substance abuse.

Add into that if they've been in a lot of fights they'll have more experience and awareness. Like anything actually doing it will give them significant advantages.

 

[Danny McG]

Just curious. How many have been in a street brawl here? I see martial arts thrown out quite a bit... but I am just curious to how many of you have had to use it?

I lived in a really crappy city and got into fights regularly. I have no training in proper technique only the ways to judge thier movements and access the stituation at hand.

Just curious if anybody's been I a stituation where they needed to fight?

It's interesting seeing what people are saying, theorizing, compared to what I went through.

A good few in my late teens to mid thirties. I was the lager lout.
Also a punch up or two with the police during the 1980's miners strikes.
They were somewhat disconcerted to find themselves up against a large number of fit and brawny men instead of the usual couple of drunks.
I've had numerous concussions, bruising, broken knuckles, teeth knocked out etc.

Good fun!

 

[tinkerdan]

I'm close to six foot tall::

Just curious. How many have been in a street brawl here? I see martial arts thrown out quite a bit... but I am just curious to how many of you have had to use it?

I lived in a really crappy city and got into fights regularly. I have no training in proper technique only the ways to judge thier movements and access the stituation at hand.

Just curious if anybody's been I a stituation where they needed to fight?

It's interesting seeing what people are saying, theorizing, compared to what I went through.

::Very light weight, so my weapon of choice has always been a good pair of running shoes.
Never considered self defense classes because I figured it was a temptation toward getting injured.
However also never in as bad a situation as others might be; though I have had occasion to put the shoes to test.

Even highly trained people don't know what will happen until they are confronted with the real thing.
If I were confronted; I wouldn't know until I'm in that moment, just what I'm capable of doing.

A seasoned soldier or law officer might; however that could easily be clouded by the present location and situation.
However a person with no fear and hair trigger reflexes may not be as much an asset as some think unless he can keep his head straight and nerves cool and that often flies in the face of the notion of someone running on adrenaline.

 

[Overread]

Another thought that experienced fighters have is reflex and unthinking actions.

Essentially martial arts and self defence training aims to repeat certain motions over and over to get them locked into your mind as a more instinctive reaction/action. Like driving a car or any other activity the aim is to reach a point where the majority of actions themselves you don't have to think about to perform - you just perform them. This lets you focus on the whole moment far more so.

Taking a car analogy the first time you drove its typically hard enough to get your feet in the right position; and the wheel; and check mirrors; and check acceleration; and feel the car move; and check other cars etc... You'd be hopeless at a roundabout. However once you've done it a while many of those actions become easier to perform and you don't have to think about them so much - thus letting you focus on other things.

Fighting is the same, so an experienced fighter has the advantage that real world fights have given them far more reflex and unthinking actions to perform. A trained martial arts/self defence student has a similar block, but they are in idealistic situations so they are less flexible until they actually get to use those skills in real fights to compliment their trained reflex actions.

 

[Lumens]

Another thought that experienced fighters have is reflex and unthinking actions.

Essentially martial arts and self defence training aims to repeat certain motions over and over to get them locked into your mind as a more instinctive reaction/action. Like driving a car or any other activity the aim is to reach a point where the majority of actions themselves you don't have to think about to perform - you just perform them. This lets you focus on the whole moment far more so.

Taking a car analogy the first time you drove its typically hard enough to get your feet in the right position; and the wheel; and check mirrors; and check acceleration; and feel the car move; and check other cars etc... You'd be hopeless at a roundabout. However once you've done it a while many of those actions become easier to perform and you don't have to think about them so much - thus letting you focus on other things.

Fighting is the same, so an experienced fighter has the advantage that real world fights have given them far more reflex and unthinking actions to perform. A trained martial arts/self defence student has a similar block, but they are in idealistic situations so they are less flexible until they actually get to use those skills in real fights to compliment their trained reflex actions.

Also, many martial arts have fancy moves which do not work in a street situation, like high kicks which look great but makes you vulnerable and off balance. They also take much longer to do than punches. Everything has its place of course, even flying kicks, but only if they don't see you coming. So if you are trying to avoid being arrested, that is not a great approach.

I have done full contact competition fights, and I know very well that the more of an attitude you approach a fight with, the less flexible you become. Having an open mind without any attitudes is the best way to go into a fight against an unknown opponent. This is a hundred times more important on the street.

This is not directed towards anyone in this thread or forum, but I find that a lot of people who practice a single martial arts form all their lives (or even just a few months), tend to become a bit protective of that form, thinking it is the "best" martial art, for whatever reasons. I don't see anything wrong with being happy about having found something that suits you well, but there is no "right" approach to self defence. The street is very different from the ring, where conditions are highly regulated, or even unlicenced fights, where things are still considered "fair".

In a real brawl, even if it starts out as a bit of a scuffle, things can escalate completely out of control very fast. Somebody on the floor, unconscious, being kicked repeatedly in the head is not out of the question. You can see situations like that posted on youtube, because these days everybody has a mobile phone. It is not pretty.

Which brings me to another point. Standing by does not make you innocent. People who film street brawls are also in danger of getting attacked, without reason, from behind even, by somebody who is angry at the world or does not like the colour of your jacket. The same goes for a brilliant martial artist who is fighting fair, and then gets bottled in the back of their head by some random stranger. Think paper, rock, scissors, where one of the ingredients is to have a nasty attitude. That's what I mean by street thugs having a different approach. Violence breeds violence. Staying out of trouble, which includes getting arrested, is a mindset.

And I am really just repeating what others have said already.

 

[Ihe]

Another thing with martial arts is which style is it?

No style can stand up to a guy ready for violence with an almighty motorbike helmet in hand, mwahaha. Those things are extremely hard!
Also dangerous, portable, and very excusable to police: keys! You can slash someone good, or use them as spiked knuckles. Wolverine they'll call ya!

Just curious. How many have been in a street brawl here? I see martial arts thrown out quite a bit... but I am just curious to how many of you have had to use it?

I don't see anything wrong with being happy about having found something that suits you well, but there is no "right" approach to self defence.

As @R.T James points out, things get messy fast; there's no time to limber up or recall your katas. With that said, I do think there are better styles suited for street fighting, so I do think there are better self-defense approaches than others.

Street fights are rarely fair. For example, you don't want to use any jiujitsu/judo/wrestling or other grabby martial arts when you're getting jumped by multiple opponents (or even by one, really. You don't wanna get too close to someone with a concealed weapon). In the time it takes to get close, tussle, and flip someone, you are done for (the others help their friend or you get too close to a weapon), and if you go down to the ground with one of them (either as part of your plan or because the thug hasn't let go of your clothes, etc), you're getting your head kicked in (same reason why submission moves don't work in street fights). As others have mentioned, kicking techniques also should be used very sparingly, if at all. If you fall or miss your kick, you're done. They won't wait for you to regain your footing or your stance.

A lot of these martial arts can become difficult, specially if they're not ingrained in you yet. That's why I think boxing is superior out in the streets. It focuses A LOT on footing and positioning and keeping the distance, which is essential, specially in 1 vs many situations, and it doesn't incorporate any distracting and dangerous notions like grappling or kicking, while having extremely nifty things like bobbing and weaving. It also focuses more on quantity vs quality. Other martial arts look for that one perfect hit/technique to take the enemy out. Boxing has that too, but it's not its bread and butter. A flurry of punches can be quite overwhelming and terrifying, and above all, it's simple. Although it can get complex at higher levels/against other experienced boxers, in the streets it is relatively simple compared to other martial arts. In do-or-die moments, simplicity saves lives. In a crisis, you don't have time to sift through your arsenal of cool techniques. If you reach blindly into your instinctual/mental toolbox, it is better to only have a hammer there, and not a nail, a saw, a screw, pliers, tape measure, and 20 different-sized spanners. Of course, at master levels, any martial artist can react and use their arsenal effectively, but I'm talking about those who haven't completely "mastered" their skills (and many say you never do). Hey, even those who are "enlightened" still can be caught by surprise.

It's not just that, someone with actual fighting experience is more likely to be aware of their physical limitations and more accustomed to pain during the fight. So they are likely to be more open to shrugging off some minor injuries. A cut or a scrape or even a bash or a bruise won't phase them because they've already been hit and know what to expect. That's without factoring in adrenaline and any potential substance abuse.
Add into that if they've been in a lot of fights they'll have more experience and awareness. Like anything actually doing it will give them significant advantages.

Not only are they less prone to panicking when hit out of nowhere, but the awareness thing is very important, I agree. People who know will detect ahead of time unsavoury types walking up to them on the street and the experienced guy will start tensing up, just in case. I love this video out there of a guy walking with his girlfriend, and there are 2 dudes walking towards them, just talking to each other. You can see in the footage the boyfriend closing fists a good 10 paces before those guys drop the act and try to take his girl's purse. He proceeds to demolish both of them, because lo and behold, he boxed, (and the delinquents weren't expecting such a quick reaction too). When violence is afoot, experienced people can tell with time to spare from body language, for the most part.

 

[Lumens]

A lot of these martial arts can become difficult, specially if they're not ingrained in you yet. That's why I think boxing is superior out in the streets.

I totally agree. And not just with this, but your entire post. Well said.

 

[R.T James]

As @Ihe stated.

Boxing style techniques do work great in a street fight.

I personally do not box, but have gotten into a few brutal fights. One of my ears was nearly torn off and it took me four years to figure out why one side was separated from my head. One of those OH RIGHT the #^&$ grabbed it off while I was slamming his head against the ground.

I learned quickly to judge anything and see whats around me. I don't know any fancy kicks, flips or even footing, but I do know I have a bit of speed and I am a lot stronger than I look. I also do not have any reaction to pain... which umm in a fight.

These are not things I am proud of. I wish I didn't know how to fight. I wish I didn't have to learn how to tell when somebody was thinking something and establishing direct eye contact with them to send a 'hint.'

So yes if I ever need to go back to my old stomping grounds I want a weapon on me. Preferably one that doesn't have any traceability to me when I end up having to use it on a gang leader who thinks I am a victim...

That's another thing. Being an easy target. Depending on how you look, or how you walk people can see you as prey. I always kept hands in my shirt pocket and if I had something in my hand I was usually spinning it around my fingers. If I saw somebody looking me over who wasn't a cop I established direct eye contact which a startling thing to most people these days.

At least where I grew up there was three ways to avoid getting dragged into crap. 1) Be stronger, 2) Have idiot friends 3) Out crazy them.



Slamming the head of a gang leader against a brick wall after doing a jump kick off of the prior wall does tend to show number 3: For the information at hand it was five versus one and they had the jump on me. If I picked a direction I would have been attacked first. So I simply exhaled kicked a foot up against the wall and threw all my weight against it slamming his head into the wall with animalistic snarl and bashed it as his friends fled. Leaving me with a very dramatic life choice...

So yeah I went for number 3 in strides.

So much so people used to fear me who didn't know me. *Sigh* made dating hard when even asking a friend out for a cup of tea results in mass hysteria that's I'm going to kill her. I just wanted to be left alone.

What I wouldn't trade to be naïve to this kind of crap.

 

[Overread]

R.T. don't forget to look at the positive side of things. Experience is something that can be passed onto others - with a bit of formal training to augment what you know and to put some instinct/learned actions into a structure (so as to be teachable to others*) you could well aid others in learning practical self defence.


*It's my experience that many people can "do" things but can't teach it unless they get some structure to what they are doing. Because many learned reactions are in that area of thinking where you're not overtly thinking it through in stages; you just do it. Thus to teach it to another can be hard because you might not know how to put what you do into clear instructions.

 

[Mouse]

We're getting way off topic now, but anyway, several people in this thread who've actually practised martial arts have commented that it isn't all about learning rigid moves, and that they have done/do full contact sparring. Sparring, for the non-martial artists, is basically where you face an opponent and try to kick their arse, there's no rigid movements, high kicks, spinning kicks, or whatever.

My sensei (yes, he's biased, I know, but I'm going to believe him over people who have no experience) always said that a boxer would not stand a chance against a martial artist.

If you get inside the range of a boxer's punch, then what? I'm no puncher. I've managed to get a six foot bloke on the floor (and I'm teeny).

My boyfriend's just been looking over my shoulder at this conversation and commented 'UFC, anyone?'

Anyway, this whole topic is starting to irk me so I'm out. It's gone past what the OP was asking, and people are getting into 'I'll knock you out in a fight' territory, which is daft. Also, I'm off on my jollies, so...