Why are people so obsessed with WW2?

[Lafayette]

@ Lafayette - read Erich Maria Remarque's All Quiet on the Western Front for one German's take on WW1 and A Time to Love and a Time to Die for his take on an eastern front soldier from WW2. All available in English.

And having looked up Erich Maria Remarque on Fantastic Fiction, there are a whole lot more on the aftermath of WW1 and other parts of WW2. Erich Maria Remarque

Thanks for the tip. When I get the time I may do that.

However, one of the points I failed to mention is that the movies and tv as a whole paint WWII German soldiers as black. I.e. cruel, vicious, merciless, stupid, and cowardly.

 

[Overread]

I think part of it might actually stem from modern day Germany. There's a huge fear there of glorifying the acts of the Nazi party and the armies in case it can support modern day pro-nazi groups. That might well have easily combined with the fact that most war and post war media produced by the allied western block (which is also the dominantly English speaking block and has Hollywood in it) was pro-allies and anti-nazis.

Modern day we've moved further from it to a point where new generations are more open to the idea of viewing things from the "other side" whilst in post war and for a long time after, the Nazi was still the enemy, still the monster that had only just been defeated.

Media and games also like them now like zombies and aliens, as a universal evil. Put Nazis in your film and you don't have to explain why they are evil or make them out to be evil and such; your audience already knows and accepts them as the bad-guys very readily (more so than aliens). Plus unlike zombies and aliens, Nazis are sane thinking humans, so it works on a different level. Zombies are evil, but ultimately mindless; whilst Aliens are inhuman.

 

[AnyaKimlin]

Because a lot of us grew up with the consequences of it. When I was a child in 80s, Liverpool was still cleaning up bomb sites, one great uncle had been in the merchant navy, one was a conscientious objector and had been in the ambulance corps, the others had been in the military and my grandfather had been a navigator. One of the first remembrance Sundays I remember, was a talk by a man who was a pacifist having witnessed Hiroshima.

On the home front my gran ran a pub, her sisters did "clerical work" etc My aunt wasn't evacuated and one of a few teens who stayed in Liverpool during that time. My gran refused to use an air raid shelter etc The stories from all of them feel alive in me.

 

[Montero]

Thanks for the tip. When I get the time I may do that.

However, one of the points I failed to mention is that the movies and tv as a whole paint WWII German soldiers as black. I.e. cruel, vicious, merciless, stupid, and cowardly.

Hhm, yes, movies.......
Well they want bums on seats and a popular action movie where the white hats and black hats are instantly identifiable is often a safe money spinner.

 

[KGeo777]

I think younger generations are going to grow up with a very different understanding of WW 2 than those born after 1950 or so since the internet (at least for now) allows unfiltered access to information.

Operation Keelhaul was called the last secret of WW 2. Those Soviet bloc citizens who understandably sided with Germany against the Soviet Union were forced to return--where they were murdered. The US and UK military knew they were sending them to their deaths.

 

[Montero]

The internet is good but not perfect - there is an awful lot of "information" that is repeating what other people have repeated. At school I was taught logic, and analysis of information - as part of various classes - science, English, History. I can only hope that this continues so that there is educated assessment of internet information by users.
Also, while you can search the internet for information, you first need to know there is something to look for. Sometimes searches can take you in interesting new directions, other times all you get is what is most talked about.

In terms of abandoning people who rely on you - that has sadly not ended. UN Peacekeeping forces have been hamstrung by that - see one example here:
What's the point of peacekeepers when they don't keep the peace?

Edited to add: Having just posted the link about Peacekeepers it strikes me that while relevant to the previous post, it is bordering on World Affairs - which we no longer discuss here on SFF due to heated arguments. I am adding this edit to that newer members are aware of that restriction.

 

[Overread]

"Also, while you can search the internet for information, you first need to know there is something to look for. "

You also typically need to know part of the answer to your question too. Once you're past the most mundane of regular activities you need to know a bit of the answer to be able to filter the search results. People fast forget that Google does not show the most accurate answers, but the most popular. It is very possible to build websites and have them rank very high in Google searches, even when the information within can be very inaccurate, highly opinionated or just flat out wrong.

Interpretation of information also goes on and yes there is a LOT of repetition of subjects. You can see this in books as well, sometimes you get a couple of really good solid reference books; then a slew of copy-cat books that cherry pick bits out of those earlier books and just repeat it in a different way. This can repeat errors or create new ones or even leave out key bits of information.

 

[sknox]

The advice I gave to my students still holds, I think: the Internet is a great place to start; it's a lousy place to stop.

 

[KGeo777]

Oh yeah I should say Google is not the most reliable search engine for information. And it does have a Soviet-link too, ironically enough. Overall though discussions are much more open than they used to be since the internet can't be controlled the way corporate media is/was (at least for now).

 

[Lafayette]

Outside of the great wealth of information, I would like to add that the internet is a two-edged sword. You can find some of the most informative, uplifting, beautiful sites in existence and the most dishonest, mean-spirited, and deprave places you wouldn't want to imagine. As mentioned one needs to filter what you find.

Monitors, please forgive us if we have gotten off track.

 

[sknox]

We could start another thread: why are people so obsessed with the Internet. ;-)

 

[BAYLOR]

We could start another thread: why are people so obsessed with the Internet. ;-)

That would be a pretty good topic .

 

[Lafayette]

That would be a pretty good topic .

Another one we could start is: Net Neutrality Pro or Con?

 

[Edward M. Grant]

Operation Keelhaul was called the last secret of WW 2. Those Soviet bloc citizens who understandably sided with Germany against the Soviet Union were forced to return--where they were murdered. The US and UK military knew they were sending them to their deaths.

We're also finally starting to see discussion of the Soviet infiltration of Western governments during WWII and how that may have affected those governments' decision to support Stalin against Hitler, even when that went against their own interests.

I'm guessing that, when the final book on WWII is written, it will be very different to the story we grew up on.

 

[psikeyhackr]

when the final book on WWII is written.

Some time after World War VII.

 

[Dave]

Oh no! We only got to page 10 of this thread without the mention of Hitler!

On the subject of the stereotypical Hollywood portrayal of Nazis, I think the recent Netflix TV Series The Man in the High Castle (loosely based upon the PK Dick novel of the same name) did a good job of showing both the Nazis and Japanese as quite normal human beings who just have different political belief systems, and also what the world in the 1960's would have been like had the Allies lost. Current forum restrictions on speaking about world affairs prevent me from making further analogies with the present day.

There are cruel people, whatever their politics. However, governments showing cruelty to their own people will top anything an individual might do alone.

Why are people obsessed with WWII? I think we have covered all the corners already.

 

[sknox]

Final book? We don't even have the final book on the Peloponnesian War! (though Donald Kagan is going to be hard to beat)

 

[Montero]

Mentioning Hitler..........Saw a documentary a while back which said that one of the new things from WW2 was the discovery of the concept of the psychopath. A lot of Nazis were interviewed extensively by psychologists before and after the Nuremberg trials and they noted a lack of empathy - and so the psychopath was discovered.
Though I suspect there were more complexities - this article on Himmler's diary
Soldier, father, psychopath: Himmler's diaries rediscovered
shows him having empathy for some people - family, staff in the SS.

Have also seen a documentary on the psychology of atrocities - and the first step is to demonise/de-humanise the people/group you want to pick on.
So the question arises - when does a belief system tip over into de-humanisation of the people not in your group?
In fact, I have seen a lot of dismissal of people's opinions because they are xxxx or not-yyyyy. Where xxxx or yyyy can be a religion, a political party, a movement (e.g Green, vegan, union member) etc.
One of the great strengths of the human race is the socialisation - co-operation enables us to do really big projects, understanding of others helps with kindness (very broad generalisation here) - but in a sense like all tools - depending on how it is used (or abused) it can be what underlies the commission of atrocities.

 

[sknox]

>when does a belief system tip over into de-humanisation of the people not in your group?

This is very, very old. It's as old as tribalism. We are people (any number of tribes named themselves People), and those over there are not. It's okay to kill them, because they aren't people.

That view of the world leans heavily on isolation. It tends to break down once we start building cities. Notice I said "tends to". Tribalism is still a strong instinct; it just has to work harder in a city because cities are inherently more diverse than tribe and village.

 

[Lafayette]

Mentioning Hitler..........Saw a documentary a while back which said that one of the new things from WW2 was the discovery of the concept of the psychopath. A lot of Nazis were interviewed extensively by psychologists before and after the Nuremberg trials and they noted a lack of empathy - and so the psychopath was discovered.

So is psychopath a scientific word or term for evil? I wonder could this terminology be construed as another form of political correctness?