14th Female Doctor for the wrong reason not the right

[farntfar]

For me, the important thing about the sex change is not any real or imagined political motive but simply a new type of doctor.

From the very beginning, a regeneration has allowed the Doctor to have a whole new set of character traits to allow for him/her to react in new and hopefully stimulating ways. And of course, at every new regeneration, half the country (and later world) has screamed blue ...dy murder.

Think about all the different ways the doctor has been described. A crotchety old man, a bumbling clown, a dandy... And that's just the 1st three.

In fact, he's had most types of personality. (Except for Colin Baker. But leaving him aside for a moment. )
Except female.

Allowing the doctor to become a woman opens up a whole new set of possibilities.

You may think I'm being politically naïve to think that that's more important than some terrible PC plot, but maybe you'll conceed that it's also true.

Oh. P.S. I think that Jodie Whittaker has started brilliantly.

 

[TheEndIsNigh]

For me, the important thing about the sex change is not any real or imagined political motive but simply a new type of doctor.

From the very beginning, a regeneration has allowed the Doctor to have a whole new set of character traits to allow for him/her to react in new and hopefully stimulating ways. And of course, at every new regeneration, half the country (and later world) has screamed blue ...dy murder.

Think about all the different ways the doctor has been described. A crotchety old man, a bumbling clown, a dandy... And that's just the 1st three.

In fact, he's had most types of personality. (Except for Colin Baker. But leaving him aside for a moment. )
Except female.

Allowing the doctor to become a woman opens up a whole new set of possibilities.

You may think I'm being politically naïve to think that that's more important than some terrible PC plot, but maybe you'll conceed that it's also true.

First off - I have no problem with a female Doc. Has lots of possibilities and having a female cool head (not so far mind) while two blokes run around like headless chickens squealing like pigs offers plenty on fun.

However, we are fortunate and live in more enlightened times.

Could you imaging the brick throwing Bishops and public riots if in 1967 say, someone had suggested a sex change character even in a SF series.

 

[thaddeus6th]

Jo, aren't most of those book characters, though?

I don't discuss Star Trek too much, so I'll take your word on the Janeway matter, but I've never seen anyone criticise Ripley, and the only Samantha Carter criticism I can remember is writer confusion over where to take her character in the later stages. Continuum had a female lead, there are plenty of major female characters in Krypton etc.

But when it comes to male pacifists (and I mean by choice, not 'wimps') there's not a huge list. Lister is a nice guy, but he doesn't have a problem blowing people up if the situation calls for it. (Ironically, Rimmer's probably more of a 'pacifist' because he doesn't want to be anywhere near danger - "Don't eyeball me, Gandhi.")

 

[Toby Frost]

In the 1990's, before Russell T Davis rebooted it, I wanted to reboot Doctor Who myself - Season 1 would have had me playing the Doctor, but in its final episode my companion and I would have merged, and Season 2 would have had the Doctor emerge as a black woman.

I don't watch Doctor Who and it's very much not my cup of tea no matter who's in the lead role, but this sounds awesome.

 

[HareBrain]

It struck me this morning that if Doctor Who had been a series of books rather than a TV series, the Doctor would never have regenerated, because there would never have been a need to cover a change of actor.

It's quite funny that what was originally a medium-specific contrivance has generated so much of its own mythology and rationale. It's also certain in my mind that the regeneration aspect has led to it lasting much longer than it would have done as books.

As for the argument that Doctor Who should have been kept as male because there's a lack of nonviolent male role models, I can't believe he was the only one. I also think it's a sad lookout if boys will really see The Doctor as so much less of a role model, even though most of her characteristics seem to be similar (adventurous, problem-solving etc) purely because of her gender (though I admit that being sad doesn't make it untrue). However, if there really is now a dearth of nonviolent male role-models, surely the answer is to demand and create some more? Wasn't that always the argument put to those who wanted more female characters in adventurous leadership roles -- "write some then"?

 

[SilentRoamer]

@SilentRoamer - ok, so I'm confused about your position. Doubtless I'm an idiot, and I may have missed something you've said or not understood it completely.

Ok, so my question would be - how do you distinguish between the two situations?

You have no intrinsic problems with the doctor being a woman, so long as the reason for it is a "story" reason and not a "political" reason. So how do you distinguish between the two reasons? As a corollary question, what would a "story" reason for the doctor being female look like to you?

You don't seem like an idiot to me. Probably my woolly way of describing my opinions.

I think distinguishing between the two situations is a personal opinion and probably not as binary as I made it seem. I have formed this opinion through watching how (particularly the BBC) is obsessed with gender, race and religious diversity. I imagine the decision had been taken that the next Dr must be a woman irrespective of other factors.

It may be my own bias skewing my opinion on this one - I have been giving it some more thought since posting.

If you have daughters and, presumably, given the passion in your post for your family (x), want to make a more level playing field for them why wouldn’t you want women in more visible roles in a genre that has consistently closed out women characters (and creators) over the years?

I’m sorry. I know you are sincere, because I know you, but I can’t understand the disconnect I see there

I guess I don't believe the playing field is as stacked against them as you do. I think there are plenty of already great female characters and I really think people are accepting of new female leads.

Do you think I wouldn't watch the new Trek because it had a female Captain? Did I dislike Voyage because of Janeway?

The problem I had was taking a well established Male character and turning him Female, I suspect the reason was politically motivated rather than motivated by a need to tell a story, I can't prove that - it's just the way I feel. I agree with Brian that they should have done it further back and a race change at the same time would have really been the way to mix things up. As it stands though I felt like the Dr was a male character - despite him being an alien - because of all the previous iterations as a male - I identified with him as a fellow man, as now some posters like @Mouse can identify with the Dr now she is a woman.

Surely you can see how the Dr now being female changes the male relationship to the Dr just as it changes the relationship of females to the Dr?

Just regarding my family - I will support my girls in whatever they want to do in life - they can be an astronaut or a stay at home mum for all I care as long as they are happy.

In this particular instance, I don't think there is a problem at all.

Of course you are entitled to think that - though many people don't share your view which is why some see it as contentious.

Anyway I'll give it some more thought but I'm not going to lose sleep over it - it's a fictional programme about an alien that travels time in a blue box at the end of the day!

Thanks for the differing opinions guys I appreciate the diversity of opinion.

 

[Jo Zebedee]

I'd actually question whether the doctor really is a pacifist. Seems to me he's taken out a few daleks in his time

I do accept this changes perceptions. But we are talking about a shape shifting alien, not a human man

I am the mother of two girls and the sole girl of 4 brothers. I know whose career was derailed to have 2 of the 10 children we all have. And it wasn’t theirs

 

[farntfar]

Surely you can see how the Dr now being female changes the male relationship to the Dr just as it changes the relationship of females to the Dr?

Of course it does, but during his time, all sorts of things have changed our relationship with him. Each regeneration changes how we feel or relate to the Doctor, as well as events in between.
Eccleston doubtless changed his relationship with northerners (and southerners). I have felt differently about each incarnation since the very beginning.

One of the biggest changes in how I viewed the Doctor wasn't brought about by a regeneration, but by the arrival of Rose. It changed my view of him entirely.
I admit, I was initially against DW falling so helplessly in love. But it's all part of his/her evolution and led to some excellent stories. (as well as some less excellent ones.)

I also think it's a sad lookout if boys will really see The Doctor as so much less of a role model

 

[SilentRoamer]

I'd actually question whether the doctor really is a pacifist. Seems to me he's taken out a few daleks in his time

I do accept this changes perceptions. But we are talking about a shape shifting alien, not a human man

I am the mother of two girls and the sole girl of 4 brothers. I know whose career was derailed to have 2 of the 10 children we all have. And it wasn’t theirs

No offence - and I really do not mean any offence Jo - but I assume you chose to have kids and could have equally chosen not to? That seems empowered to me. Please don't feel I am questioning your life choices - I am absolutely not, they are yours to make and no one elses. I think I've mentioned before but to me individual sovereignty is a key principle - by definition that means I ascribe the same human value to all individual humans - whatever their sex.

I'm not saying parity is totally evident but there is general acceptance that parity is a good thing. I dont think I have met anyone who thinks women have less intrinsic value than men or don't deserve to be represented in particular job fields.

On a flip note - you rarely hear complaints about lack of representation of women in refuse collection or the many jobs with excessive workplace deaths, or hear about the lack of men in nursing and care - I see this as symptomatic of this type of gendered analysis. However I do accept there are historical and ongoing issues - but I think societal attitudes and moods are changing for the better.

I can't go into my thoughts any further as I risk going too political and don't want to bring enforcement down on the thread.

Jo feel free to PM me to discuss more as I don't want to be personal over an open thread but feel that we could definitely share some experiences

Each regeneration changes how we feel or relate to the Doctor, as well as events in between.
Eccleston doubtless changed his relationship with northerners (and southerners). I have felt differently about each incarnation since the very beginning.

This is a very good point - although I would argue none of the changes have been as drastic as a sex change. I do take your point and each Dr does feel different so I appreciate this view.

 

[Jo Zebedee]

I’ll not PM - but t of course I had a choice, as did my brothers. The difference is in taking that choice (which I’d take again, my kids are central to my life and it is the better for them) I had to accept my career trajectory would be compromised. I believe things have improved somewhat - but not enough in areas such as STEM, access to trades etc.
You are also hearing incorrectly if you believe women are not clamouring for equal access to dangerous or dirty jobs. We clamour for equal access to any job we would like to do - just as men should clamour for the same. It’s not about picking and choosing - it’s about making it so that we can pick and choose across the full spectrum of roles, just as men should be able to (they still suffer prejudice when choosing to be the main carer for children, for instance, and that’s as much a fundamental choice that should be upheld as any right for women is)

But you are right - this is into dangerous territory for the Chrons and I shall finish there

(Please make the assumption when I use men/women I believe the same for all genders - it’s just the thread started as a man/woman thing )

 

[SilentRoamer]

I’ll not PM - but t of course I had a choice, as did my brothers. The difference is in taking that choice (which I’d take again, my kids are central to my life and it is the better for them) I had to accept my career trajectory would be compromised. I believe things have improved somewhat - but not enough in areas such as STEM, access to trades etc.

I think I have a big PM heading your way anyway about your novel in the works - have some more questions and probing to do!

Back on topic - I was raised by a fantastic single mum with an absent father so I know all about women having to take on the burden in some cases and I appreciate women are often the ones left carrying the children and providing.

You are also hearing incorrectly if you believe women are not clamouring for equal access to dangerous or dirty jobs.

Sorry Jo I think that's demonstrably wrong - you will never hear women calling for equality and representation in workplace deaths. The hard truth is there are many jobs women overwhelmingly choose not to do. Womens rights groups do not fight for more equality in waste disposal - if you can point me to evidence to the contrary I will happily educate myself but I believe the drive for representation are in fields with good financial rewards or with high status. No group in their right minds fights for more workplace deaths...

...it’s about making it so that we can pick and choose across the full spectrum of roles, just as men should be able to (they still suffer prejudice when choosing to be the main carer for children, for instance, and that’s as much a fundamental choice that should be upheld as any right for women is)

Totally agree with this Jo - but what we shouldn't do is lower the standards of a role to allow women to be able to compete - an example is the fire service, women have less physically demanding tests in order to increase their parity - that is not a good idea. Now if a woman can pass all of the physical tests then absolutely they should be able to do that role. The merit should be independent of gender - couldn't agree more with you. Of course physical strength is the only area men outperform women - in terms of IQ and intelligence the data shows we are about equal - differences in distribution but minor stuff.

But you are right - this is into dangerous territory for the Chrons and I shall finish there

I think our civility in the discussion hasn't necessitated the need for mod intervention. Thanks for that.

(Please make the assumption when I use men/women I believe the same for all genders - it’s just the thread started as a man/woman thing )

I believe also in equality for both genders. There should be no judgement based on man/woman and merit should always be the most important factor.

Jo - thanks for the discussions - I appreciate you don't agree with me and I appreciate you don't try to label me in any particular way or make assumptions about my views. I'm thankful for the conversation.

@Brian G Turner Sorry for causing the mods a headache on occasion,

 

[Brian G Turner]

Yeah, I think we need to get back on topic - which is about the Doctor and whether being female works or not, rather than going into wider social commentary.

 

[SilentRoamer]

Yeah, I think we need to get back on topic - which is about the Doctor and whether being female works or not, rather than going into wider social commentary.

No worries! I've said what I needed to say and outlined the reasons - I had to touch on social commentary in some way because it is an influencing factor in what I could see as the potential problems with the gender change - at least IMO.

Happy to have said my views and received some interesting points to chew over. Thanks for the light touch.

Appreciate all of the comments from everyone who has taken the time to speak with me

 

[Bagpuss]

Yeah, I think we need to get back on topic - which is about the Doctor and whether being female works or not, rather than going into wider social commentary.

Ok, so then I think that as a character "the Doctor" works equally well as either a man or a woman. I mean, if you look at the first episode of this season and then look at it from the perspective of Graham, Ryan and Yaz (as characters) then they have no knowledge of the Doctor's history or her previous lives. All they really know as characters is that, in a scary situation, this slightly odd woman randomly turns up and, in her own manner resolves that situation. Unless she actually tells them she used to be a man (and that line of dialogue is one of my problems with the dialogue in the episode) then none of the companions/friends in the episode have any reason to assume or realise that she used to have a different gender before they met her. And why should they.

The fact that the Doctor is a woman doesn't enhance or detract from her achievements in the episode nor does it change her effects on the other characters' lives (both good and bad). In my opinion, you could have written that first episode and swapped the gender of the Doctor to a male and it would, in my view, have made absolutely no difference to the story. Of course, that is not to say that the plot of the episode is without its flaws, nor that the dialogue couldn't have been improved upon in some places. However, except for the line about buying women's clothing (a line of dialogue that could, in my view, have been improved upon if they'd thought about it a bit more), the elements of the story's plot or dialogue are not dependent on the Doctor being male or female.

It will be interesting to see how the show handles the Doctor being a woman in the historical episodes. But, overall, I don't see how the sex change makes a difference to this Doctor as a character.

 

[farntfar]

A very nice analysis, Bagpuss. Thank you.
Of course the lines you mentioned (Twenty minutes ago I was a ...etc) were played for laughs and fell rather flat.

It'll be interesting to see how the writers play her humour, if she continues to talk and act at such a pace. It'll need to be handled differently to that of the previous incumbents, so we don't all miss it.

 

[REBerg]

Ok, so then I think that as a character "the Doctor" works equally well as either a man or a woman.

Exactly. The show is Doctor Who, not Mister Who.

 

[Phyrebrat]

In Forest Hill today I saw a huge hoarding advertising the new series of Dr Who. It had Jodie Whittaker posterised and the huge text saying ‘It’s about Time...’

I’m sure some ad ‘man’ thought this a clever pun and if it wasn’t such a divisive pitch I’d have applauded

Instead it made me wonder when women’s rights became so mean-spirited.

OpH

 

[Anthoney]

I’m sure some ad ‘man’ thought this a clever pun and if it wasn’t such a divisive pitch I’d have applauded

Instead it made me wonder when women’s rights became so mean-spirited.

I see the clever thought but not the mean spirited part. Even double entendra is just a wink and a nod and is a long way from mean. At least as I define it.

 

[Phyrebrat]

It just seems a little angry.

Any advocate for change is hindered by their own anger. What is a shame is all I’ve heard is praise for her. I think it’s an important change but it needs to be natural not a turf war.

Admittedly I say that from the privilege of being male in a patriarchal society but it just struck me as an odd play.

pH

 

[SilentRoamer]

In Forest Hill today I saw a huge hoarding advertising the new series of Dr Who. It had Jodie Whittaker posterised and the huge text saying ‘It’s about Time...’

I’m sure some ad ‘man’ thought this a clever pun and if it wasn’t such a divisive pitch I’d have applauded

Instead it made me wonder when women’s rights became so mean-spirited.

OpH

Lovely tone for a sign... I suppose it drives home the BBC narrative of too much male, pale and stale.

Admittedly I say that from the privilege of being male in a patriarchal society

pH

You should go check all that male privilege - it's toxic.