14th Female Doctor for the wrong reason not the right

Phyrebrat said:
It just seems a little angry.

Any advocate for change is hindered by their own anger. What is a shame is all I’ve heard is praise for her. I think it’s an important change but it needs to be natural not a turf war.
Admittedly I say that from the privilege of being male in a patriarchal society but it just struck me as an odd play.

pH
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To be honest I think it’s just a pun and not mean. Which is not to say I don’t think feminism can be mean - but that particular one I find clever. (Because about time can also mean there’s no issue here - the show is about time and nothing more, or it can be the feminist take on it or about the show itself.)

I do think male privilege is toxic - for men, not just women, as it happens
 
"It's about time" is an aggressive phrase. After all, you wouldn't really use it any other way (perhaps, exasperated?).

- It's about time you showed up; I've been waiting ages, where have you been!!??
- It's about time they put speed bumps next to that school; I've been complaining for years!!

But (and it's a big but) I don't think it's intended that way. It's just that the double entendre doesn't work with another phrase such as "It's time for a change" - that would only describe the desire for a female Dr Who.

Times change maybe - that's more neutral but doesn't quite work to describe the show (Time changes).

Although now I'm seeing a wibbly wobbly graphic with Dr Who-type font saying "Time changes", then the "s" fading out to the sound the Tardis makes and reappearing at the end of "Time"...perhaps fading in and out of both.

Maybe I'll suggest it to the BBC.

Along with my script.

And volunteering to be the next Dr Who.

Or a companion.

Or an alien.

Or someone in the background.
 
Good responses all.

Jo, you know what my ‘thing’ is re equal rights from my Facebook posts - I have to temper the great upset and rage I feel about racism, myself because of the way I see it ruin lives in my line of work. One thing that’s always on my mind is trying to manage my own rage about it. When I’m on the bus or tube or wherever, I have to make sure the message is heard in any arguments rather than my emotive language. I think this is what jumped to mind when I saw that ad.

As Matteo says, it is an aggressive term to use and that’s what I was responding to, I suppose.

And I couldn’t agree more about patriarchy being toxic for boys - again because of my work. These pathologised boys I work with are so soft and vulnerable inside but the external pressure is what makes them turn to gangs.

Anyway. I give the Doc a thumbs up and I am sure she’d still be as successful without that loaded ad. :)

pH
 
So far, the new Doctor has done a great job!

I think I will - as I tend to do - simply enjoy the show, without worrying about either the Doctor's gender, or the show's 'canon'.

But that's just me. :D
 
Yeah, I don't see anything angry about it either. That phrase has been going around since the announcement about Jodie, and to me it's just a clever twist -- like the show is full of. I can hear it in my mother's voice: "It's about time you showed up." Just a sardonic sort of poke, really.
 
Jo Zebedee said:
Maybe it’s a cultural thing - but this is the way we use the phrase here too. It can be exasperated too but it’s often pretty mild and often jokey.
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In Yorkshire - gods own county - about time normally has negative connotations. About time is normally a reference that something has taken too long, like if you turn up late for something..."its about time".

Normally when my mum used to say it, it often had a lovely little Yorkshire insult in the middle "Its about bloody time!"
 
Jo Zebedee said:
What is female privilege, exactly?
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Lots of different things IMO.

Prioritization of health services (prostate cancer is a huge killer of men and gets nowhere near the funding or recognition that breast cancer does), lesser incarceration rates for the same crimes, custody rates and lack of custody for fathers (an example being a father having no legal right to demand his name on the birth certificate which makes any additional claims extremely difficult), less working life (generally women die older but retire younger) and a far higher chance of dying in the workplace, women historically avoided the draft so often it is young men who are sent to die in times of war, in the event a building is burning or a boat is sinking then women and children are prioritized to be rescued first. Men are overwhelmingly the victims of violent crime (they're also the offenders) and when you include prison statistics then men also experience rape and sexual assault at a rate comparable to women yet it has massive social stigma. Male rate of suicide - something which has affected me a number of times in my life already.

Sugar and spice and all things nice.
Slugs and snails and puppy dogs tails.

I understand that being a man affords me certain privileges in life, but being a woman also comes with certain privileges in life - no sex has ownership of privilege and victim hood and to claim otherwise is just virtue signalling and proclaiming victim status against the truth of reality. (Im specifically talking about the West.)

Women have suffered historic injustices - but so have men.

Should we take this to DM as I fear were going to lock the thread - although Im sure we can have a reasonable discussion I don't want to cause problems - it wasn't me who started it this time! **Looks @Phyrebrat balefully**
 
I’m afraid, after a very unpleasant experience in PM I never PM about things like these. If I can’t be said openly I don’t go there (different from writing stuff - like world building and the like)

Suffice to say - I don’t agree with how you perceive the feminist argument.

Feminism is not about picking and choosing what we should - or should not - have equality on but a belief that equality should be in place for all. Most feminists I know are very much aware of suicide rates in men and see it as something that should have much more social and funding emphasis than it does. (And, yes, that includes exploring how we place expectations in boys to be strong, to not speak of emotions, to be big and brave and not let us down.)

Ditto rape. The stats would shock people if known - but it is a hugely under reported crime that has been buried. Perhaps if the culture changes will be more reported and the stats harder to ignore (going back to how we set expectations in males to be strong, to be able to fight for themselves and others, to it being shameful to allow such a thing to happen)

Of course no one is going to say - please imprison us more! Or any of the other things we don’t actively ask for. But the concept of equality applies - the level of sentencing should be the same once all factors have been taken account - including risk of reoffending, risk to the public etc which is where, in my understanding, the differences come from btw. If the ship goes down, my kids go first and I’ll follow with every other adult - either my boy kids, if I had them, or girls.

And that IS the feminist argument.

This isn’t a competition. It’s about equality across everyone. (I consider myself a privileged person in this world - I’m not prosecuted for my sexuality, my gender choices, or my race*) That includes where men don’t have equality - but those areas tend to be rarer than women’s equality. And of course some women get very militant and irk people, and yes, sometimes the balance is not applied well. But sometimes it is needed and only by applying it can we balance things.

Let’s hope one day it all balances out - for everyone’s benefit. I suggest in the meantime we draw a line under this: I will not change your views, nor you mine.

*although there is still a stigma about being Northern Irish and linked to terrorism, but I have never been affected much by that
 
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I wouldn't like to have a discussion over something as evocative as equality via PM simply because I think it defeats the object of a public forum. It's horrible thinking @Jo Zebedee had to endure some kind of abuse by PM - something I wouldn't ever imagine happening in this placid corner of the internet.

My other thought is that by stemming rational, thoughtful dialogue does us all - and 'the cause' - a disservice.

I'm probably biased, but I've always thought of Fantasy and Science Fiction fans to be somewhat more enlightened than most. I'm therefore not surprised that Doctor Who has reincarnated as a woman before, say, James Bond.

There's a sea change re equality in most things thse days apart from race as far as I can see, and I think the growing generation of girls and gay/non-CIS people will find things much easier and fairer than they are now.

To wit: I've been watching Netflix's The Haunting of Hill House. It's a passable adaptation of the Shirley Jackson novel - although each episode is entirely far too long and suffers from pacing issues - with some lovely moments and great characterisations. The thing is, it is suprisingly plagued with misandry. I've yet to see a male character portrayed as anything but either impotent, ineffective or selfish. The women - of which there are a majority - are all strong, self-actualised and empowered.

Does it bother me that the men are ineffective in comparison to the women? No. It's a story and the Shirley Jackson novel is also a heavily feminine piece. It's congurent; I'm happy.

Am I bothered about Doctor Who as a woman? Of course not. What is interesting is they can play with gender issues in a way they couldn't with a male doctor. But that's not to say they will - or should: Her femaleness can be irrelevant to the role just as it can be relevant. God, I hope I'm making sense with that sentence.

What matters is that Jodie Whittaker is a great fit, and a great actress. And on those counts, the community seem to be perfectly happy.
 
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The message wasn’t on here, Phyre - but the initial contact with the person was. It’s no biggy but it’s made me wary of PMs. It’s no reflection on @SilentRoamer, who is a mate and has been for ages, but I prefer my discussions on such topics in the open, with everyone I engage with :)
 
So....

About this female creature (an alien apparently) who's now purporting to be Dr Who.

Any thoughts anybody?
 
I don't see the pun as being aggressive. If it were intended as so, it would be a bit stupid, because it's an ad commissioned by the BBC -- and since there was nothing stopping them making the Doctor female at any point in the show's history, it would just be the BBC being snarky at itself.

I'd interpret it more as self-congratulatory.
 
Jo Zebedee said:
This isn’t a competition. It’s about equality across everyone.
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I absolutely agree with you Jo - which is why I think it's important not to solely talk about male privilege - as both men and women are privileged in different ways, I don't think men have it worse than women, they just have it different.

I understand about the PM thing - I must be honest I do feel aggrieved (on your behalf) as I would never resort to any sort of personal attacks against someone I disagreed with and it's a shame that happened. Anyway I completely understand your reasoning in wanting things out in the open that being the case it's just a shame we have no recourse here for political/social discussion as I feel like I would be missing out on your views. Hopefully one day there will be a WorldSFFChron meet and we can have a good political natter.

Anyway mods I'll shut up now and stop giving out headaches. :)
 
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