Random Thoughts About Androids

[Stephen Palmer]

There's also the possibility that androids won't be separate units with separate minds, but linked by some kind of cloud. Until it gets hacked, of course.

If they are physically and electronically separate (as humans are) they could develop minds, but I don't think it would work any other way.
This is a great thread by the way. Very thought-provoking. Cheers Toby.

 

[goldhawk]

Not sure what you mean, Goldhawk!
Would be interested to know though.
Toby's question has many, many ramifications...

Bolos are tanks (non-androids) created by humans. Isn't that what you asked for?

 

[Dennis E. Taylor]

I may be reading too much into the OP's post, but it sounds like their difficulty centers on starting with a particular concept of an android and then trying to build a story around it. Really, you should be going the other way. Start with a story that you want to write that involves artificial beings, then let the world build itself. You might end up with humaniform, you might not. You might end up with sexualized androids, you might not.

Really, the potential story space for such themes is almost infinite. What do you want to write?

 

[Dennis E. Taylor]

Having said all that, I personally think C3PO-style robots are passe. The real-life technology has already bypassed that particular trope. So you'd need an explicit reason to build something that way.

 

[Stephen Palmer]

Bolos are tanks (non-androids) created by humans. Isn't that what you asked for?

Yes!
But didn't get the reference...

 

[Ihe]

No, it's not the only advantage. We can run farther than any other animal. When it comes to long-distance running, humans are the best.

If that had been enough, we'd never developed higher thought functions, IMO. For hunting purposes, sure, that could be deemed an advantage, but persistence hunting evolves from higher brain functions, as you need some level of planning and organisation for it to work, so I would think it is more a byproduct of higher intelligence than a cause. Persistence hunting is more of a strategy than it is a physical advantage. No matter how exhausted your prey is, a tired lion will still eat a fresh unarmed human. Development of thumbs and of the upright position are more of a cause for intelligence and human survival than endurance-running, in my eyes at least.

I think we are looking for companions/partners, rather than "Something Better".

That does say a lot about us. Even our fellow humans aren't enough to satisfy our need for control--er--partnership. Food for thought.

 

[Reif]

Interesting thoughts. I am working on a novel about AI as well, and it's easy to fall into that cliche ideas and twists and such. But then I thought maybe thinking bigger than human will help. Since this ' revolt of the slaves' stuff come mostly because of human, if we think bigger, something like human isn't that important at all, we might explore some new ideas.

 

[The Ace]

They like ice cream and ponies, and can hide very quickly when danger threatens.

 

[Toby Frost]

Actually, now I think about it, Polly Carveth was probably something close to a replicant, albeit one with no special abilities (arguably piloting, self-preservation and soaking up alcohol, I guess). The current story is about something cruder and less human, made out of mechanical parts.

Just to answer Dennis E. Taylor's point (to a degree): the story does require this sort of character, partly because the plot is about a difference between real and false people (which makes it sound far more highbrow than it actually is - there are also space pirates, ballroom dancing and prehistoric monsters) and partly because I wanted to write something from that perspective (although I find it hard to explain exactly why). As it's gone on, it's become less obviously comedic and more thoughtful. I did try writing the robot-POV parts in a rather arty way, but it wasn't my style and I'm not sure that it worked. But as it is, they are rather more detached and have quite an odd outlook.

I do actually think there is a use for a human-shaped (non-android) robot, but only because it's the shape that fits our technology best, in the way that some of the Boston Dynamics robots are quadrupeds because that's a convenient shape for carrying stuff and not falling over. That said, a ball of limbs would probably be more efficient.

 

[Ursa major]

So you have both ballroom dancing and robots that are not... er... strictly androids, eh?

​

 

[mosaix]

The human form is not that efficient to begin with.

Not sure about that, Ihe. I remember a science fiction story, probably from the 60s or 70s, maybe in Analog.

Someone discovers a mad scientist who is illegally making robot-like creatures, large, small, some with wheels, some with legs, some agile, some heavy. He is discovered and escapes. The scientist sets a variety of differing-form robots in pursuit. He climbs walls, covers a variety of terrains - rough, smooth, boggy etc, runs up and down steep slopes, swims a river and makes his way through a dense wood. Guess what? He suddenly realises he's alone and not one of his pursuers has managed to keep up.

 

[BigBadBob141]

I can think of one good reason to build an intelligent humanoid robot.
That is for use as a valet, maid or cook.
I don't think a multiple limbed body mounted on caterpillar tracks would be very practical in a human household.
The environment we make is for us and us alone.
It is adapted to our shape because it is where we live.
Therefore in the future I see no reason not to have bigger and better models like Asimo.

 

[Onyx]

Female androids not used for sex are exceptionally common in manga and anime. They are used as disguised weapons, bodyguards, accidental synthetic life and most interestingly, social stabilizers.

Not mentioned anywhere in this thread is a use for androids as replacement members of society that doesn't have a huge human population density. In Appleseed, "bioroids" are a necessary part of a programmed civilization that values preventing strife by having a large portion of the population that is a calm balance to human impulsiveness.

In the Revelation Space universe and other authors' works, colonization attempts are made using low mass ships loaded with only genetic material and automation. The first generation of people are raised by robots - female androids would be the best choice for the form of automated nannies.

 

[-K2-]

First of all, disregarding sexual preference and for that end use, there is absolutely no reason to build an android gender specific, none. It really befuddles me why androids are always shown as male of female instead of androgynous.

The excuse of android over robot to make people feel more comfortable around them only goes so far. I believe most humans would prefer (again disregarding sex) an ambiguous android gender-wise in that it defines an android as exactly that. Furthermore, it caters to the human need to feel superior, special and able to be or do something that others cannot.

By giving an android a gender, be it through form, voice, mannerisms or whatever... it instantly smacks of 'replacing a human.' That is the idea which most people cannot tolerate. The android/robot in "I-Robot" in my opinion meets with what I feel most folks would actually find ideal.

Finally, as to a human formed robot, contrary to what many have suggested I believe the opposite. It is ideal for operating in a human world with all of the variables that it would be expected to encounter and cope with. Robots such as AMEE from Red Planet, though vastly more capable in many regards, would also be severely lacking if say it had to perform some simple task like darning socks, emptying a dishwasher and so on.

We have built our world to suit us and our physical form. Past that, the human body, it's movements, coordination, dexterity and so on are incredibly complex (why it is so difficult to reproduce). The big limitation being, that humans are grown out of flesh and blood. Remove that limitation of being grown, and suddenly they could leap 50', lift a car, or remain perfectly still for days on end.

The human form is truly the culmination of millennium of evolution to bring it to the point it is at. More so, with the input and feedback of billions of previous models. Spend that much time trying to improve on it, and you just might have something. Otherwise, as to being a jack-of-all-trades, it's as good as we got.

K2

EDIT: Oh, P.S.: Be sure there is one thing that most stories get right. That is the fact that machines, robots and androids ARE slaves. They are slaves in the purest sense of the term. However, we can get past that term and past the idea of slavery in that they are not a sentient being in an emotional sense.

In the latest Blade Runner - 2049, when K is walking back into the police station we see a human officer feint at him and blurts out "**** *** skin-job!" We see K cringe yet move on, clearly averting his eyes and cowering to all other officers. That's when the programming has crossed the line. To show him totally disregarding the slur and having no need to cower, that then makes them 'in our minds' less than human, disposable, and frees humans up from the guilt of forced servitude without having to be a sociopath to do so.

Be sure, humans being made to feel free from their own guilt will be a critical aspect of such a machine. Otherwise, those terms that I just applied 'less than human and disposable' become very real in that is how humans view human slaves.

 

[Onyx]

First of all, disregarding sexual preference and for that end use, there is absolutely no reason to build an android gender specific, none.

I just listed a bunch of reasons you might want an android to pass as a person, and people are not androgynous. So if you want your bodyguard robot to blend in, they are going to look like either a man or a woman, not a made up third sex.

Finally, as to a human formed robot, contrary to what many have suggested I believe the opposite. It is ideal for operating in a human world with all of the variables that it would be expected to encounter and cope with. Robots such as AMEE from Red Planet, though vastly more capable in many regards, would also be severely lacking if say it had to perform some simple task like darning socks, emptying a dishwasher and so on.

Regardless of what you believe, we have so far never made a machine that looks even vaguely like human body parts when replacing tasks that a human would do by hand. Human hands are not better for darning socks than something considerably finer and more flexible. There is no reason to handicap a robot by restricting the size, number and dexterity of their appendages to an androform. More realistically, there are no important tasks that a robotic replacement for a person would need to perform at a human work station, unless you subscribe to some sort of 1950s SF aesthetic where the world is the same, except you have people shaped robots delivering newspapers by bicycle before they chop firewood with a wood handled axe. An automated kitchen robot wouldn't stand at a counter and dice vegetables with a knife - it would be the kitchen.

That sort of servant/slave replacement thing is a bad fetish, not a realistic idea about how to use automation or what a world capable of produce robots of that sophistication would look like.

A truly multi-use autonomous robot would be more like an octopus with limbs that bifurcate down to the microscopic level. The body flexibility AMEE has at least is going in the right direction even if the hands are too crude.

 

[-K2-]

I just listed a bunch of reasons you might want an android to pass as a person, and people are not androgynous. So if you want your bodyguard robot to blend in, they are going to look like either a man or a woman, not a made up third sex.

I understand the reasons you stated, I'm just not buying into them. X person might want an android to be a human replicant for Y reason... yet that is just that person. Not the whole of society.

Regardless of what you believe, we have so far never made a machine that looks even vaguely like human body parts when replacing tasks that a human would do by hand. Human hands are not... (etc..)

You have just eliminated the android part out and instead substituted robot or machine. Past that, your examples do not fit the bill of an all inclusive machine that is able to do all things as well as a human. Sure, you can design a machine to do this or that with a mechanical precision and more importantly dexterity well beyond a human's... However, you then just limited its ability to do so with a thousand other things.

The human form is the consummate jack of all trades (in a human world). I cannot express it any better than I have regarding the countless 'revisions' that the human body has gone through... Your robot starts at revision No.1. In the end, to do ALL things that humans do EQUALLY well, requires the human form.

K2

 

[Onyx]

I understand the reasons you stated, I'm just not buying into them. X person might want an android to be a human replicant for Y reason... yet that is just that person. Not the whole of society.

"Society" doesn't purchase Ferraris, individuals do. Planned societies create things like the Trabant. If enough individuals wanted human looking androids, then the robotics industry would make them. Alternately, if people have the ability to make or order bespoke technology, they will get one of a kind ones that way. Society doesn't really get a vote unless society first actually decides to ban them - which is the opposite of the fascination most people have with technology.

You have just eliminated the android part out and instead substituted robot or machine. Past that, your examples do not fit the bill of an all inclusive machine that is able to do all things as well as a human. Sure, you can design a machine to do this or that with a mechanical precision and more importantly dexterity well beyond a human's... However, you then just limited its ability to do so with a thousand other things.

The human form is the consummate jack of all trades (in a human world). I cannot express it any better than I have regarding the countless 'revisions' that the human body has gone through... Your robot starts at revision No.1. In the end, to do ALL things that humans do EQUALLY well, requires the human form.

Ask any mechanic if they have all the dexterity or number of limbs they wish they had to do their job. Do you know the number of tools that have the name "third hand"? The human body is just the least bad way to turn an arboreal ape into a walking tool maker, not a design winner. If you want something that could do anything a person could but better, I don't know why you'd handicap that device with limited joints, only two manipulator limbs, stubby fingers with hinge joints and only one opposed finger per limb. The AMEE robot shows how much flexible a roughly mammalian body plan could be, and the Ghost in the Shell clip gives a demonstration of hands that are much, much more capable than human hands.


"Android" in the C3P0 sense is silly. It can't pass itself off as a human despite being saddled with human body plan limitations. Put those Ghost in the Shell hands on an AMEE type chassis and you'd immediately have device that could work anywhere a human would, but be more capable and assume shapes that a human couldn't. Give it four more of those arms and it becomes several more times as productive. Make all the body parts modular and easily reconfigurable and you have that much ability to perform traditionally human or machine tasks. Make the whole thing an origami lattice of super fine servos and it would be like a shape shifting metal octopus.

There's simply no reason to make robots that are shaped just like people but look like machines unless that's just what some rich guy thinks would make a great butler aesthetic. Torsos don't do anything for a machine that doesn't need lungs and 30 feet of intestine - why would a robot have one? To look better in a smoking jacket?

 

[Stephen Palmer]

android = "male"
gynoid = "female"

(my 2 pence)

 

[-K2-]

android = "male"
gynoid = "female"

That is the first time I ever read that word, 'gynoid.' Thanks for that!

K2

 

[Stephen Palmer]

I have seen it used a few times recently.
I first used it in Flowercrash, which came out in 2002.