Random Thoughts About Androids

@Onyx ; Yes, there is a problem there. First off, keeping the internal components sealed from external contaminants including the most difficult to prevent of all, water. Next, maintaining connections be they mechanical, fluid or electrical. You're insisting upon rotary unions which can leak, wear, or lose their connections. You're also reducing the dexterity of the human to single plane movements to maintain those connections... I could go on, but hit me with another if you'd like.
That's simply not true. We have submarines, Mars probes, factory robots and a host of other complex jointed devices that have more dexterity than animal joints despite being useful in extreme environments. At the very least, have you ever seen how complex yet strong and tough a front wheel drive suspended wheel is? Pretend the head is that wheel - are you really saying that front wheel doesn't have more flexibility than a neck or shoulder?

There isn't a mechanical engineer on earth that would agree with your premise.
 
That's simply not true. We have submarines, Mars probes, factory robots and a host of other complex jointed devices that have more dexterity than animal joints despite being useful in extreme environments. At the very least, have you ever seen how complex yet strong and tough a front wheel drive suspended wheel is? Pretend the head is that wheel - are you really saying that front wheel doesn't have more flexibility than a neck or shoulder?

There isn't a mechanical engineer on earth that would agree with your premise.

Are you sure? The whole host of industrial (HELPM), biomechanical, kinesiology, etc., engineers here in our house disagree. If you can design a machine that is as durable as a human, as strong, light, flexible, dexterous, able to endure varied environments, internally self cleaning, repairable, etc., etc., you will be a gazillionaire.

JUST make it equivalent to a human, that's all. Improve upon it, under ALL conditions, situations and scenarios, not just a few, yet all, and you'll be the wealthiest person on the planet. All of the things you mention are extremely specialized. They'll sacrifice weight for strength, bulk for motions, rigid plumbing and communication for flexible. Most of all, they will wear out in much less time than a human.

My go to person here, upon asking about your shoulder scenario (neck even more complex), I asked him how much it would cost to mimic a shoulder to fingertips like a human. That includes weight, range of sensitivity, control, strength and so on. His answer was blunt: "With today's technologies, primarily materials, it cannot be done."

That is just to mimic it. Heck, make an equivalent hand and you'll be wealthy, make skin and you'll be staggeringly wealthy. Humans are complex and versatile beyond our imagination, not just mentally, yet physically.

In any case, give me a body part and I'll tell you with today's technology what would have to be done. An entire arm would be too long of an answer... So, just one joint or portion of a limb.

(I have some things to do, yet will make it a point to answer sometime tonight)

K2
 
Okay, so let's say we make it extra thin to crawl through pipes. It now cannot swim as well and is more frail. If we make it bulkier to be stronger, it is now heavier. If we make it fatter to be more buoyant in water, in now cannot fit in typical human seating, through doors and so on. If we give it extra fingers, even one, now its hand is not as diminutive as it was to work in small spaces. If we give it what are ideal feet to run, it doesn't stand as well... etc..
What I'm trying to say is that we can stuff the droids full of capabilities above a human's. If it's extra thin to crawl in pipes it can still have flippers, and retractable limbs, and the whole package. If it's too heavy it can divide into smaller pieces or it can walk on walls, if it has running feet, it can have a third foot for stability when standing, etc. A small android shaped like a 20-headed hydra could do more, IMO.
 
But you'd accept a steak or colonoscopy from C3PO?
No, that's what I'm saying. I don't want to have sex with C2PO, but there are lots of other things I don't want him to do to/for me, including the steak and the colonoscopy. I was just saying that the market for humanoid robots is much bigger than sex. (Although if recent history is our guide, that will be the cutting edge.)
 
Are you sure? The whole host of industrial (HELPM), biomechanical, kinesiology, etc., engineers here in our house disagree. If you can design a machine that is as durable as a human, as strong, light, flexible, dexterous, able to endure varied environments, internally self cleaning, repairable, etc., etc., you will be a gazillionaire.

JUST make it equivalent to a human, that's all. Improve upon it, under ALL conditions, situations and scenarios, not just a few, yet all, and you'll be the wealthiest person on the planet. All of the things you mention are extremely specialized. They'll sacrifice weight for strength, bulk for motions, rigid plumbing and communication for flexible. Most of all, they will wear out in much less time than a human.

My go to person here, upon asking about your shoulder scenario (neck even more complex), I asked him how much it would cost to mimic a shoulder to fingertips like a human. That includes weight, range of sensitivity, control, strength and so on. His answer was blunt: "With today's technologies, primarily materials, it cannot be done."

That is just to mimic it. Heck, make an equivalent hand and you'll be wealthy, make skin and you'll be staggeringly wealthy. Humans are complex and versatile beyond our imagination, not just mentally, yet physically.

In any case, give me a body part and I'll tell you with today's technology what would have to be done. An entire arm would be too long of an answer... So, just one joint or portion of a limb.

(I have some things to do, yet will make it a point to answer sometime tonight)

K2
I guess I have no idea what you are talking about. A shoulder is a ball joint, and it could be replaced with a mechanical ball joint. But an incomplete, self heeling ball joint that isn't mechanical is not necessary to make a human shaped android. So I assume you are no longer talking about a electro-mechanical robot but some sort of biochemical replicant kind of thing, which really isn't implied by the term "android" and is closer to "clone".
 
I just want a cute lil' android for companionship!! Is that too much to ask for? Or wierd?
 
What I'm trying to say is that we can stuff the droids full of capabilities above a human's. If it's extra thin to crawl in pipes it can still have flippers, and retractable limbs, and the whole package. If it's too heavy it can divide into smaller pieces or it can walk on walls, if it has running feet, it can have a third foot for stability when standing, etc. A small android shaped like a 20-headed hydra could do more, IMO.

Okay, so let's experiment... I want an android that can crawl through a pipe a human can fit in. However, it cannot exceed a human's size. So, where are you going to put those equally strong and long limbs within a human torso, while extending flippers?

If it breaks into pieces, then it needs to have hardware for attachment, that hardware takes up space, needs support and so on. You also need to make connections for all of the wires and plumbing. Connections that seal when they become disconnected... etc., all taking up space, all needing to seal tight (which then limits movement) etc..

In any case, third legs, flippers, increased size, etc. all means that it will lose the ability to do certain other things that a dedicated bipedal human can. Past that, you are no longer making an android, but a robot.

I guess I have no idea what you are talking about. A shoulder is a ball joint, and it could be replaced with a mechanical ball joint. But an incomplete, self heeling ball joint that isn't mechanical is not necessary to make a human shaped android. So I assume you are no longer talking about a electro-mechanical robot but some sort of biochemical replicant kind of thing, which really isn't implied by the term "android" and is closer to "clone".

Okay, so let's take a shoulder. You also requested:
There's absolutely no reason that a robot with a shoulder that or neck joint that can rotate 360° would perform poorly compared to one with human limitations because of having this extra flexibility, unless you think that an android has to have muscles to turn its head rather than servo motors.

First off, let's consider just a small portion of the combinations of range of motions of a human shoulder (there are more):

Description-of-arm-movement-series-relatively-to-the-thorax-with-the-arm.png

Range-of-Motion[1].jpg


Scapular-motion.jpg



Next let's look at the actual joint, realizing that the bones are not captured (meaning, everything floats and moves like the shoulder blade and clavicle images above):

1431660832497


This is also helpful in understanding that the joints are not captured allowing greater flexibility, replacement joints:

58cf627dcdeff909d0349ca5.jpg



So, with that out of the way, and realizing that there are even more complex motions, you also mentioned the ability to rotate a shoulder 360° (I assume you mean continuously round and round)... Consider this: Our shoulder's cannot spin round and round due to captured muscles, vessels, nerves and even skin... ALL things which your 'android' must have for numerous reasons in some form or another. So we'll try and consider both a mere 360 and back, and continuous rotation.

Using skin as an example; a mere improvement of 360° rotation means that the elasticity of the skin must dramatically improve. Not just how much it stretches, yet also return to its previous length. It will also wear during use (stretching and compressing), meaning unlike a human, it will eventually fail. On a human it self repairs, on an android it won't so there it already falls short.

Considering a continuous rotation scenario (like a robot), you might suggest splitting the skin at that point, however, if you slit the skin you have just broken the "seal." Skin is an amazing seal to our internal components. Disregarding all of the other things it does, it seals all that is inside from all that is outside, and can do so to tremendous pressure. Once you break that seal, it WILL leak, allowing moisture and debris in. Those contaminants will degrade the internal parts. You can accommodate for resistance through materials and shielding, however then you're sacrificing other material strengths/costs simply to compensate for the loss of skin and likely adding bulk.

****

If we look above, a human shoulder and all of its hard components "float." They are not captured joints. That allows for a greater range of motion 'with control' from a minimal number of components. They are held in place using muscle, tendons and ligaments, which also have designed into them flexibility, elasticity, and again the ability to self repair when taken beyond those limits.

Those limits are in place for a reason. The simplest being, we cannot wind-up our nervous and circulatory systems or they will be pinched off or worse damaged. Whether wiring for sensors (which you must have to mimic touch), or component control (whatever you use for muscles), or plumbing (say for hydraulics), you must either limit the motion or use one of these, a rotary coupling:

17337-2377305.jpg


The above is a very simple rotary union. All it does is allow (in this case) 2-3 ports of fluid to be transferred through a rotating joint. Say each of the muscles in your arm are hydraulic, and let's say we only need to get 3 lines in to the arm (forward, back, drain), wherein in the arm itself those lines are routed to a manifold for distribution.

Stop there a moment... If all of our controls are in the arm, we also must add 2-solenoids per muscle, and it is likely that we will need a mechanical control to limit extent of motion, naturally sensors must be added to control that motion and confirm positioning... and you can see how even though we are just beginning this is all adding up rather quickly.

Now we also need one of these integrated into the above, a slip ring:

Slip_Ring003_B-definition.png


All a slip ring does is allow electrical signals or current to be sent from a fixed point into one rotating. In our case, if the arm cannot work independently from the body, if all control is done at a central location that likely means thousands of wires, the above is only 12. We can however simply send power meaning three, and once again like the fluid control, via wifi say send signals to an independent controller within the arm.

We have a problem however...

The joints above only turn in a single plane. Our shoulder moves in numerous planes all at once, as though sweeping through any point within a partial sphere, though much more (also in and out, up and down, etc.). So we'll set these inside where the shoulder blade is, and all of that other motion takes place beyond or outside of it.

Blah-blah-blah...

I could go on, however I suspect that you have already ceased reading. Never the less, to simply be able to rotate an arm continuously has added a MASSIVE amount of bulk... More so, weakened it in that the above components are not designed to take a sheer or axial load. They can, however they will wear quickly then fail if used to that end.

Now I'm not just speaking of bulk in the shoulder. Remember, we have moved all of the controls, sensors, and hydraulic controls into the arm. So the arm has become much larger. As it becomes larger filling it with more, then it becomes heavier, so harder to control. So, we then must bulk up those unions to be stronger, add more powerful/larger drives to turn that arm... and so quickly we've just ramped up the size of our android again.

This goes on and on and on... Because, current technology does not allow you to do what you want without increasing in size considerably. I haven't even begun to discuss motions, supporting structures, attachments and so on... All we have done is add a simple connection for 3-electrical lines and 3-fluid.

In other words... for your seemingly 'simple' improvement of rotation, everything changes for the worse very quickly.

That said, if you're curious about robotic automation look here: https://www.fanucamerica.com/product/robots/ Note the payload and reach compared to size, realizing that you still need to power, control and carry the wiring and plumbing to whatever the end tooling is.

Past that I'm not going to spend anymore time on this debate. If you wish to argue it, then I suggest you ask some experts on a robotics forum that you trust to pose your opinions to. See what they have to say. This is a field of study that is worked at around the world. That being, to simply make a robot that can move as well as a human, let alone exceed those limitations.

You might make one aspect better, yet in the process, you'll make a number of others worse.

K2
 
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you are no longer making an android, but a robot
Fair point. Maybe I've been arguing all this time to get rid of droids altogether and get a robot instead. :cool:
 
So, with that out of the way, and realizing that there are even more complex motions, you also mentioned the ability to rotate a shoulder 360° (I assume you mean continuously round and round)... Consider this: Our shoulder's cannot spin round and round due to captured muscles, vessels, nerves and even skin... ALL things which your 'android' must have for numerous reasons in some form or another.
No, they don't need to be able to spin round and round, and a simple internal or external cable is all that's required to transmit energy and control to subsequent joints.

And there is no reason an android need "muscles, vessels, nerves and skin", it just needs the analog of some of them - electric servo motors, cables, sensory equipment where needed, torque sensing in the servo motors.

This is a hand that has no ligaments, muscles or skin, but senses touch, pressure and weight. If this is able to tie a shoe, how is this not an example of a viable android component?


Otherwise, there is no current way of making a complete android, so talking about the limitations on weight and joint size is somewhat misplaced. Aside from needing to come up with a useful power source and brain, all the parts, like joints, would be subject to greater development. But there is no reason to think that an articulated arms that can acquire all the same positions and more of a human arm couldn't be made with servo motors and materials much stronger and with more range of motion.

Keep in mind that you can get the function of a single ball joint by simple stacking two pivot joints right next to each other.
 
Here's the photo I forgot to post in my prior post of an "android" hand that has no skin or muscle but works like a hand:

maxresdefault.jpg
 
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