Fictional languages

I like Lovecraft’s use of inscrutable language of the ancients in his stuff because its limited use and strangeness adds a sense of otherness (along with the required existentialist terror ;) )

My take is that these kind of things are only worthwhile in tv or film where subtitles can be used at the same time.

As far as enriching world goes, hmmm. I’m not sure. I would read an Ashanti author’s book in Twi, but English.

However... having said that reading French literature is different to the translation to English for beauty, sound, and the bon mot!

pH
 
I am not working on a fictional language at the momennt but this thread is good food for thought anyway.

However I can't help wondering if a lot of the focus here is on Earthling languages and specifically human ones. Perhaps understandable if characters are descended from humans. But are we sure that alien languages would follow the same rules as human ones? Aren't languages to some extent hardwired to anatomies? What if your alien communicates through sonar or skin pixels? (open questions)
 
I am not working on a fictional language at the momennt but this thread is good food for thought anyway.

However I can't help wondering if a lot of the focus here is on Earthling languages and specifically human ones. Perhaps understandable if characters are descended from humans. But are we sure that alien languages would follow the same rules as human ones? Aren't languages to some extent hardwired to anatomies? What if your alien communicates through sonar or skin pixels? (open questions)
Even if aliens "talked" in verbal speech that sounds like ours, there is no real reason to expect that they would be translatable. Human language is not wholly logical and is deeply referential. Other languages might be totally different than that in basic syntax, before we even get to the medium.
 
Well, there are plenty of words in human languages that seem to be hard to translate into English, or whose meaning depends on the context and who's saying them. And I'm sure there are words in English like that.

It might be worth having a look at Harry Harrison's West of Eden. The creatures in it aren't technically aliens - they're intelligent creatures evolved from dinosaurs - but they do have an impressively different culture and outlook, and a strange language of their own.
 
Something I'd like to note regarding using fictional, or even non-English languages (in English written works of course) is how I present them and make them understood.

With digital media, it obviously becomes very easy. There we can simply write out the text using whatever language (perhaps even phonetically, though I don't use that method unless a non-Latin alphabet), and make it so with a simple "mouse-over" the English translation appears (if that option is available).

Dependent upon the story you may not want to do the above, but it is an option. Though I did not have that option at the time, I really wish for my 211k-word Western novel I did have that option. Within it, there is English, German, French, Spanish, Chinese and roughly 12-Native American languages used. That left me when none of the characters understood it, having text that few readers would ever understand. So though the lines of dialogue are there... It's pointless beyond 'Bob said this and no one understands including the reader.'

What I wish I had done with that text, I am now doing with my current work. I want my protagonist to know the language, my deuteragonist to not, and whole conversations to exist wherein the DA. and reader are left hanging as to what is said. In that work, I'm supplying an appendices of by-chapter/by-line translations (in that hot-linking is not practical). In that way the actual content is not lost.

Past that, I'm sure we all realize various ways that fictional languages can be presented so the message gets across. Whether one character translates, the character speaking uses their own language then repeats themselves in English, non-dialogue text or action explains it, etc..

Whatever method is used, I believe that fictional languages help make a story just that much more real and immersive. It helps to show confusion which can really help add to the differences between cultures separating out the characters from one another, and often establishing how vast the gulf is between them that must be bridged.

K2
 
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What I wish I had done with that text, I am now doing with my current work. I want my protagonist to know the language, my deuteragonist to not, and whole conversations to exist wherein the DA. and reader are left hanging as to what is said. In that work, I'm supplying an appendices of by-chapter/by-line translations (in that hot-linking is not practical). In that way the actual content is not lost.
I'm going to say it, so you at least have a record that someone spoke up: This sounds dreadful.

When reading a book with appendixes, I will almost never flip to them as this disrupts the chain of thought going on in the scene. I will read them last, and if they prove to be nothing more than transcriptions of ordinary conversation that where already summarized in the action, I would stop reading them.

There is no "richness" in words that we cannot read. "Al gort simonitca blatcheu?" is not interesting in and of itself, and its translation can never be more rich than the English words it is the placeholder for. What you're really doing is forcing the reader to sit and scan past a half page of "Xxxxx, xxx xxxxxx xxxx. X xxx xxxx xx xxxxxxx!" It doesn't matter if that's really Korean or Andromedan because it is in unreadable code. People aren't even going to read it phonetically because that's not how we read - people read the shapes of words not the letters, and only read the spelling if they have to do so to get the meaning pulled out of something that is written phonetically, like a creole.


I see no richness in an large amount of unreadable text, and no Easter eggs in an appendix full of very ordinary translations of that encoded text. All that adds up to are many pages that the reader is going to skip both in the narrative and at the end.*

As with all the background exposition stuff, you sound WAY too in love with the meta elements of creating written material. You are like a potter who expects a vase to only be displayed next to a video about its throwing, firing and glazing in the customer's home, when people just want a vase not a dissertation on ceramics.


*(What would be rich is if you had the occasional footnote that briefly discusses why something said in Korean is funny or interesting due to some quirk that doesn't translate into English, explaining why a character laughs as an otherwise dry statement of fact. These are the kind of notes that can make a book richer.)
 
I'm going to say it, so you at least have a record that someone spoke up: This sounds dreadful.

Perhaps, yet it works well. There are parts where the language is translated in the scene (to the deuteragonist) or responded to in such a way that what was said is known... yet I want the 'paper' reader to be able to read it if they choose or not. By not, the scene loses nothing. In fact, it enhances it in that the deuteragonist is supposed to not understand and be confused by it.

More so, the reader will pick it up (the language) quicker than you think. So it works.

K2
 
Perhaps, yet it works well. There are parts where the language is translated in the scene (to the deuteragonist) or responded to in such a way that what was said is known... yet I want the 'paper' reader to be able to read it if they choose or not. By not, the scene loses nothing. In fact, it enhances it in that the deuteragonist is supposed to not understand and be confused by it.

More so, the reader will pick it up (the language) quicker than you think. So it works.

K2
People don't learn to read new languages by reading translations.

What the scene loses is the reader's attention at having to scan through a number of nonsensical paragraphs of unreadable text searching for clues to why the author is making them work so hard, when all the reader needs is:

Tanto and the Protagonist spoke at length, often gesturing toward the east mesa. The Protagonist turned to the Deuteragonist, "They're up there, but he says we won't make it before sunset."

I think you're totally off base wanting to replace "spoke at length" with a page full of undecipherable text and an appendix full of chit chat. That would be such an incredible slog to read.
 
If it works--that is, if you've published this and the editor was fine with it, and you have plenty of readers who either love that aspect or at least have not panned it--then fine. Good on ya, mate.

If it works in the sense that you yourself are fine with it, but it remains unpublished, that's fine, too. Be aware, from some of the responses here, that not all your readers may react the way you believe they will. For myself, confuse me too often and for too long, and I'll simply put down the book. Clarity is a hallmark of communication; there are far too many good books that are clear for me to have much patience with those that are deliberately opaque. That said, there are many different kinds of readers, and you only need a fraction of them for your book to sell well.
 
If it works--that is, if you've published this and the editor was fine with it, and you have plenty of readers who either love that aspect or at least have not panned it--then fine...

...If it works in the sense that you yourself are fine with it, but it remains unpublished, that's fine, too. [Etc.]

Just for the record, all of your points regarding 'publishing' are well noted and taken to heart. Though everyone has thus far made valid points, yours on that subject bear a lot of weight in determining, or perhaps gauging, how valid everyone's points are including my own.

Good stuff, from everyone!

K2
 

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