'Elitist': angry book pirates hit back after author campaign sinks website

[SilentRoamer]

At the moment, maybe not. But the moment you stop fighting it, it will become a very serious problem.

I disagree. Movie / film is pirated on a far greater level and the impact has never hit the epidemics previously predicted. With written word there is also the problem of Medium - you can't pirate a physical book, sure you could download and print it but you wouldn't end up with the same product. Whereas films (with the exception of collectors) they are just bought to watch.

I am not defending piracy, I am just advocating for a better solution than to falsely conflate it with theft - when by definition it's not that.

 

[SilentRoamer]

Just to add to this - the pricing points for ebooks are extortionate - the comparable costs to deliver a book as opposed to an ebook are nowhere near. So the profits on ebooks are significantly higher (maybe not for the author), which to me is a problem.

There is also the problem of ownership - you never actually own the ebook, you own a license which gives you permission to read it. For me, when authors/publishers are charging book prices for ebooks then that creates a moral rationale in the minds of some.

 

[Cathbad]

Movie / film is pirated on a far greater level and the impact has never hit the epidemics previously predicted

The FBI continuously prosecutes such cases - which was my point: The moment it is widely known there will be no consequences forthcoming, the floodgates will open.

 

[Cathbad]

the pricing points for ebooks are extortionate

Totally agree with this. Seems if you are a successful author already, it's okay to oak the public by charging more for the ebook than for the physical book!

 

[RJM Corbet]

Well, if anyone wants to download a pdf of my writing and then print it out 10p a page ... I've pretty much made it anyway, lol ...

 

[RJM Corbet]

Let's say, who round here is seriously talking about making a financial input from their writing? Is that the motivation? So: why?

If not, the internet is working in your favour: for free sending your ideas and wisdom around the world?

 

[psikeyhackr]

Just to add to this - the pricing points for ebooks are extortionate - the comparable costs to deliver a book as opposed to an ebook are nowhere near. So the profits on ebooks are significantly higher (maybe not for the author), which to me is a problem.

So what is a reader's time worth?

I decided long ago that the real cost of a book was the TIME it took to read it. So the problem was the books that were not worth the time. Of course back then the books were less than $1. I am reluctant to spend $8 on a book when I might decide that I have wasted my time after reading only 25% of it.

How much does an author get on each book sale?

 

[Parson]

I saw a fantastic twitter thread from an US librarian the other day that said very much the opposite. Apparent many publishers charge absurd amounts for Libraries to purchase ebook licences (also some very opaque pricing schemes), with the result that many books either aren't available, or aren't available in a quantity anywhere close to meeting demand.

Information which was unknown to me (above). Upon reflection I did know that libraries were charged a premium rate for books and that should have been a clue to what happens with ebooks. I also agree that stealing something without a noticeable physical presence is much easier to justify. "After all, it's just an idea and so should be free." or something like that kind of malarkey.

 

[The Big Peat]

Information which was unknown to me (above). Upon reflection I did know that libraries were charged a premium rate for books and that should have been a clue to what happens with ebooks. I also agree that stealing something without a noticeable physical presence is much easier to justify. "After all, it's just an idea and so should be free." or something like that kind of malarkey.

It's not so much that ideas should be free (although it is for some), so much (as mentioned by others) as the fact there's no physical cost, which makes it very easy to say "Its alright because I wouldn't have paid for it so they're not losing anything".

 

[Ursa major]

I may be wrong - but it seems you interpreted my words as a moral stance in support of copyright infringement.

You are wrong on that point.

I was not examining your moral stance, but the danger of calling something an infringement -- specifically an infringement of something seemingly airy-fairy (copyright) -- when it is, basically, taking something without consent... the absence of consent being an important factor when determing when an activity is or is not criminal.

We on this site should realise the importance of words, and how they can change perceptions. (If words are not important, why are euphemisms used?)

So if we cannot use "theft"**, we should replace it with the logically correct terms: "taking without consent" or "using without consent".


** - Surely there isn't but a single definition of that crime, given how many different legal jurisdictions and codes there are in the world.

 

[RJM Corbet]

So what is a reader's time worth?

I decided long ago that the real cost of a book was the TIME it took to read it. So the problem was the books that were not worth the time. Of course back then the books were less than $1. I am reluctant to spend $8 on a book when I might decide that I have wasted my time after reading only 25% of it.

How much does an author get on each book sale?

That's where reviews by reputable newspapers and magazines come into it. If the reviews are good, the book is usually going to be worth reading?

So one can go to a bookshop or flea market and pick up paper books and check-out the review quotes on the back cover. Chances are -- but of course not always -- that if there aren't any reputable quotes, it's not going to be a great book.

And that's where internet books may suffer, imo? The cover blurb means nothing in itself, except perhaps to indicate that the subject of the book may interest you?

EDIT: In a way, because internet books have to be purchased and paid for on the internet, the author actually has better control over getting paid. Paper authors' books get read then passed on, resold for 50p in charity shops etc, re-read countless times with no author royalties until they fall apart, lol ?

 

[RJM Corbet]

Let's say, who round here is seriously talking about making a financial input from their writing? Is that the motivation? So: why?

If not, the internet is working in your favour: for free sending your ideas and wisdom around the world?

I'm sorry, this was meant joking/serious. But it may not have come-off that way, to the writers here trying to earn something from all the blood sweat and tears they put in.

I do apologise.

 

[SilentRoamer]

The FBI continuously prosecutes such cases - which was my point: The moment it is widely known there will be no consequences forthcoming, the floodgates will open.

Yes but generally they go after the distributor and not the end user, so for the end user - there is little to no risk to criminal exposure.

@Ursa major Although there is no single definition most copyright materials in the West are covered under US copyright infringement. Just to be clear also you aren't "taking" anything - it's not possible to take something which is infinitely reproducible. For example, if I was to copy, by hand, a novel in a library to take home - would that be theft? You could argue intellectual theft, but I'm fairly sure IP laws don't apply to written work. So nobody "takes" the electronic file - they take a copy of something which is (for free) infinitely reproducible.

I'm not arguing it isn't wrong, just that we need new moral and legal frameworks to protect content creators. Legal frameworks are easy but the problem is legal frameworks often develop out of moral positions, theft is wrong because we almost universally accept the concept of private property and ownership, what we need to do now is educate younger generations into the value of supporting content creators.

 

[Vertigo]

My understanding is that the law, in Europe at least, is looking to try and sort this current mess. Within Europe paper and electronic books are even taxed differently; books are VAT free and ebooks have VAT added. Also tied into all this is that the buyer does not own any downloaded media, they only licence it, whereas the buyer does own the physical book they buy. This is why ebooks cannot be sold 'second hand,' given away or passed on to your descendants.

Frankly this is a bit of a mess; the legal world has not yet figured out how to deal with digital commerce and it's only getting more complex with the growth of subscription style 'ownership' as opposed to outright purchase.

 

[Cathbad]

Yes but generally they go after the distributor and not the end user, so for the end user - there is little to no risk to criminal exposure.

For most people, it's the old adage: "A lock merely keeps an honest man honest". The simple fact that there's even a slight chance of being prosecuted is enough to make most people wary of breaking the law. That's why the problem isn't more widespread. Take away that lock...

 

[SilentRoamer]

I disagree it isn't widespread. If you include illegal streaming services then copyright infringement (or piracy) has become increasingly prevalent. Especially considering the rise in technical know how of the younger generations.

Although I am do agree with your broader point.

 

[The Big Peat]

For most people, it's the old adage: "A lock merely keeps an honest man honest". The simple fact that there's even a slight chance of being prosecuted is enough to make most people wary of breaking the law. That's why the problem isn't more widespread. Take away that lock...

That's really not my experience, and I'm not just talking piracy. Between drugs, drink driving and piracy, I'd argue I know very few people who didn't break the law in some way in the last year. Most of them people who'd describe themselves as good, honest, and on friendly terms with at least one serving police officer.

 

[Cathbad]

That's really not my experience, and I'm not just talking piracy. Between drugs, drink driving and piracy, I'd argue I know very few people who didn't break the law in some way in the last year. Most of them people who'd describe themselves as good, honest, and on friendly terms with at least one serving police officer.

I only said most.

 

[The Big Peat]

I only said most.

I guess most of them are wary to be fair, and wary is what you said. But they go ahead and break it anyway. And I'm talking a pretty big cross-section of people in two different countries here. I know evidence is not the plural of anecdote, but I'm pretty sure the evidence would be found if you could find honest surveys of people reporting their attitude to laws they believe to be rarely upheld.

 

[Cathbad]

their attitude to laws they believe to be rarely upheld.

I think you're making my point!

And I can honestly say I haven't broken even the most inconsequential of laws in this past year - and probably not since June 2014 (when I stopped driving).