Villeneuve's Dune: Part One (2019)

[Swank]

Ive watched half of the movie and Im going to watch the other half tonight. Didnt realise it was so long before I started watching it.

So far I have really enjoyed the film, great visuals, soundtrack was good, the casting has been phenomenal, with one exception:

Why did they make Liet Kynes a woman? It does not fit AT ALL with our understanding of the patriarchal Fremen, it just completely took me by surprise and I hate this sort of thing. If Herbert wanted Liet Kynes to be a woman, then he would have written the character as a woman. It just really annoys me when they gender swap a character... so I am guessing that Liet Kynes will now be the mother of Chani?

Can anyone see a valid reason for gender swapping Liet? Up until that point I was really enjoying the movie and felt like I was watching a faithful adaption. it wont spoil the movie for me (I will just ignore it) but it jars with my internal consistency.

The reason to make some of the changes like that and removing the Baron's pedophilia is to make the film more palatable to more audiences. In the film, one might presume that the Fremen are a little less patriarchal than they are in the book.

Is there a reason that the level of Fremen partriarchy is so important to you? Does the story fail to work if the Fremen are portrayed as a bit more egalitarian when it comes to gender?

Besides which, Kynes is not just a Fremen. Their standards may not apply in the same way.

 

[SilentRoamer]

The reason to make some of the changes like that and removing the Baron's pedophilia is to make the film more palatable to more audiences. In the film, one might presume that the Fremen are a little less patriarchal than they are in the book.

I'm not sure having Liet Kynes (a male character in the books, would be as problematic as depicting the Barons peadophilia). If I am honest I think it would have been better to portray the Barons paedophilia - they certainly hinted at it in the Lynch version.

Is there a reason that the level of Fremen partriarchy is so important to you? Does the story fail to work if the Fremen are portrayed as a bit more egalitarian when it comes to gender?

I mean this with respect but how can you think the change has no impact on the story?

The reason it is important to me is because that is how the story was originally written and it is one of the greatest SF novels of all time. Changing it (any of it) dilutes the story, especially when the change seems to have no real meaning other than a box ticking exercise. Remember Jessica had extreme difficulty winning the Fremen over, partly due to their patriarchal nature.

What about Ghanima? She would now have access to the ancestral memories of Liet Kynes...

Besides which, Kynes is not just a Fremen. Their standards may not apply in the same way.

No - Liet Kynes is the secret leader of the Fremen, something which would NEVER have happened if Liet was a woman due to the patriarchal nature of the Fremen.

It seems to me like changing the character is a tickbox exercise to please a modern audience - but lets be absolutely honest, who is going to watch an SF film and complain about female representation...

The character was written male, is a male and has been cast incorrectly, directly against the Canon of the story. Liet is not some minor role, and although a lot of Liets story happens off page there is a lot there.

 

[Toby Frost]

Changing it (any of it) dilutes the story

So do the weirding modules in the 1984 version, or the portrayal of Jessica in the Villeneuve version (completely wrong, IMO) or the reduction of Hawat's role to very little.

I was going to write a comment in more detail but I can't be bothered to argue about this kind of thing anymore. All I will say is that I think it makes very little difference at all. It's like remaking a film and having a woman judge give a verdict instead of a male one.

 

[Le Panda du Mal]

he portrayal of Jessica in the Villeneuve version (completely wrong, IMO)

I actually don't remember much about how Jessica is portrayed... which could be part of the problem. She's actually the most interesting character in the book IMO. I was disappointed they left out the banquet scene where she really gets to shine.

 

[SilentRoamer]

So do the weirding modules in the 1984 version, or the portrayal of Jessica in the Villeneuve version (completely wrong, IMO) or the reduction of Hawat's role to very little.

I was going to write a comment in more detail but I can't be bothered to argue about this kind of thing anymore. All I will say is that I think it makes very little difference at all. It's like remaking a film and having a woman judge give a verdict instead of a male one.

I always hated the Weirding Modules - there really was no reason for them.

I disagree it is the equivalent of having a female judge instead of a male judge - the entire position of that judge changes the makeup of the Fremen and how they rose to be the leader - you really think the Fremen would accept a female leader? It would be like having a King of the Amazonian warriors.

Its a pointless change, it is not made to improve the story (such as having Arwen rescue Frodo in LoTR) and is done to please modern sensibilities (also only the sensibilities of a small subset of people who actually care). It just seems completely pointless and contradicts with my head canon of the story.

 

[SilentRoamer]

I actually don't remember much about how Jessica is portrayed... which could be part of the problem. She's actually the most interesting character in the book IMO. I was disappointed they left out the banquet scene where she really gets to shine.

Yeah Jessica is an awesome badass. She was one of my favourite characters in the book.

 

[SilentRoamer]

Finished watching the film, really enjoyed it. Great music, great visuals, really good action scenes.

Barring my small dislike of gender swapping characters this hit all the right notes.

Excited to see the second half.

 

[Swank]

I mean this with respect but how can you think the change has no impact on the story?

Because it has no impact on the story. The story isn't about the Fremen, and the little peccadillos of Fremen society are a sidenote. Liet is not the "leader of the Fremen". The book makes it very clear that Paul is the first leader of all Fremen. The Kynes family were leaders of the Fremen ecological project, but at no point did they dictate how the sietches dealt with each other or coordinated in combat. And Liet's word was not even enough to protect Paul and Jessica from Stilgar when he found them.

And, Fremen are not a strict patriarchy since their religious rights are lead by women. Name another patriarchy with that set up.

Liet is a semi-outsider with a near religious following. If anything, that role fits very nicely with the way women lead religious life and water related matters. I see no conflict at all. In fact, who do you think was going to take on the work after Liet besides his one child, Chani?


You seem to have patriarchy on the brain and are spun up about it when it clearly is a big nothing in the story - like someone who feels patriarchy is important and is aggrieved when it fails to get its due. Stilgar could have been a woman and it would not have changed the story one bit, just the details of how people became Naibs. Who cares?

What about Ghanima? She would now have access to the ancestral memories of Liet Kynes...

She does. Like Alia (who can access the Baron) and her brother, she has all the memories of both genders. That's why it was a toss up who was going to make the sacrifice of merging with the sandworms.

It seems to me like changing the character is a tickbox exercise to please a modern audience - but lets be absolutely honest, who is going to watch an SF film and complain about female representation...

The character was written male, is a male and has been cast incorrectly, directly against the Canon of the story. Liet is not some minor role, and although a lot of Liets story happens off page there is a lot there.

It is a tickbox - one that says "How can we make this movie appeal to more and make this amazing story accessible to more audiences?" I don't know why there is the feeling that it is the ultimate betrayal to have a woman do a man's job when a woman is perfectly capable of doing so, or why people get wrapped up in what race James Bond is. Get over it - these are truly not fundamental issues. The misrepresentation of ornithopters is more of an issue than who has a penis.

Personally I find it odder that the Fremen don't all look Arabic or that the Sardaukar aren't Nazis.

Why would the Zen Sunni wanderers, 20,000 years from now, appear to be Arabs?

 

[Le Panda du Mal]

Not to mention that Herbert’s inspiration came more from Circassians and other people of the Caucasus than Arab culture.

And the top five countries with the highest Muslim population today are not Arab.

 

[SilentRoamer]

Because it has no impact on the story. The story isn't about the Fremen, and the little peccadillos of Fremen society are a sidenote. Liet is not the "leader of the Fremen". The book makes it very clear that Paul is the first leader of all Fremen. The Kynes family were leaders of the Fremen ecological project, but at no point did they dictate how the sietches dealt with each other or coordinated in combat. And Liet's word was not even enough to protect Paul and Jessica from Stilgar when he found them.

And, Fremen are not a strict patriarchy since their religious rights are lead by women. Name another patriarchy with that set up.

Liet is a semi-outsider with a near religious following. If anything, that role fits very nicely with the way women lead religious life and water related matters. I see no conflict at all. In fact, who do you think was going to take on the work after Liet besides his one child, Chani?


You seem to have patriarchy on the brain and are spun up about it when it clearly is a big nothing in the story - like someone who feels patriarchy is important and is aggrieved when it fails to get its due. Stilgar could have been a woman and it would not have changed the story one bit, just the details of how people became Naibs. Who cares?


She does. Like Alia (who can access the Baron) and her brother, she has all the memories of both genders. That's why it was a toss up who was going to make the sacrifice of merging with the sandworms.


It is a tickbox - one that says "How can we make this movie appeal to more and make this amazing story accessible to more audiences?" I don't know why there is the feeling that it is the ultimate betrayal to have a woman do a man's job when a woman is perfectly capable of doing so, or why people get wrapped up in what race James Bond is. Get over it - these are truly not fundamental issues. The misrepresentation of ornithopters is more of an issue than who has a penis.


Why would the Zen Sunni wanderers, 20,000 years from now, appear to be Arabs?

I don't see male and female as something that is interchangeable without any effect on the story, the character and their interpersonal relationships.

Stillgar could be female? And it wouldn't affect the story? So Pauls relationship with Stilgar wouldn't be different? Stilgars relationship with his sietch?

I don't see male and female as a set of clothes that can be donned without any change to the character - it is a fundamental part of who they are and affects their character and their interpersonal relationships.

I really don't care to the race of James Bond - Idris Elba would make a great Bond, because I don't think race informs his character, I do think however that James Bond should always be male - as this does inform his character.

I doubt either of us will have a change of heart over this. We can always agree to disagree.

 

[Toby Frost]

Why would the Zen Sunni wanderers, 20,000 years from now, appear to be Arabs?

I think you're right about this, in that there's no logical reason why they would physically resemble Arabs: it's more a case of living in a desert. However it's confused by the fact that Herbert uses a lot of Middle Eastern (presumably Arabic) words to describe them. I reckon the audience is meant to come away with the sense that the Fremen and Sardaukar are a 1950s American pop culture image of Arabs and Nazis, respectively, "but in space". I suppose it's a sort of shorthand.

 

[SilentRoamer]

She does. Like Alia (who can access the Baron) and her brother, she has all the memories of both genders. That's why it was a toss up who was going to make the sacrifice of merging with the sandworms.

Does Ghanima have both sets of ancestral memories like Alia?

For some reason my head canon is telling me that was never fully confirmed - although its a long time since I read the books.

 

[Swank]

I think you're right about this, in that there's no logical reason why they would physically resemble Arabs: it's more a case of living in a desert. However it's confused by the fact that Herbert uses a lot of Middle Eastern (presumably Arabic) words to describe them. I reckon the audience is meant to come away with the sense that the Fremen and Sardaukar are a 1950s American pop culture image of Arabs and Nazis, respectively, "but in space". I suppose it's a sort of shorthand.

I don't think any of the people in Dune should look like people in the 20th century. 20,000 years is four times longer than recorded history. If I was the director I would have cast nothing but "mixed race" actors, or I would drastically changed the way all the actors looked. Even if the Fremen have actual Arabic ancestors, they haven't been using desert words the whole time since they left earth and they clearly haven't kept to themselves if they have added Zen Buddhism to their faith.

I don't see male and female as something that is interchangeable without any effect on the story, the character and their interpersonal relationships.

Stillgar could be female? And it wouldn't affect the story? So Pauls relationship with Stilgar wouldn't be different? Stilgars relationship with his sietch?

I don't see male and female as a set of clothes that can be donned without any change to the character - it is a fundamental part of who they are and affects their character and their interpersonal relationships.

Sometimes gender is important when it directly impacts how characters relate because of romantic relationships or gendered personality traits. And sometimes your airline pilot is female and the plane flies exactly the same as it would with a man in the seat. Liet Kynes is the latter kind of character.

The Fremen do not have a patriarchy that resembles any we have. Imagine Islam with all female Imans.

Does Ghanima have both sets of ancestral memories like Alia?

For some reason my head canon is telling me that was never fully confirmed - although its a long time since I read the books.

Yes. I don't think you know Dune so well to be lecturing about what is "canon". I may not either, but I've read the entire series at least eight times. It is primarily about how much people could change from the present. They don't look or act like present day people.

 

[Toby Frost]

Yes. I don't think you know Dune so well to be lecturing about what is "canon". I may not either, but I've read the entire series at least eight times.

OK, I'm out.

 

[SilentRoamer]

Yes. I don't think you know Dune so well to be lecturing about what is "canon". I may not either, but I've read the entire series at least eight times. It is primarily about how much people could change from the present. They don't look or act like present day people.

No need to be hostile or rude. I was unsure - hence I asked the question.

I am sorry you think people need to be scholars on the books they read in order to have opinions you might disagree with. At no point was I "lecturing". I was stating my opinion and giving my reasons for said opinion.

Ill echo the poster above me - I'm out.

 

[Le Panda du Mal]

I think you're right about this, in that there's no logical reason why they would physically resemble Arabs: it's more a case of living in a desert. However it's confused by the fact that Herbert uses a lot of Middle Eastern (presumably Arabic) words to describe them. I reckon the audience is meant to come away with the sense that the Fremen and Sardaukar are a 1950s American pop culture image of Arabs and Nazis, respectively, "but in space". I suppose it's a sort of shorthand.

Frank Herbert's primary inspiration for the Fremen came from Islamic Caucasians (Circassians, Dagestanis, etc) and their resistance to the Russian empire (see Imam Shamil). Hence the Fremen language is Chakobsa.

As far as Arabs go, the wide range of peoples classed as Arabs today encompasses a great diversity of physical traits so it really isn't possible to generalize what an Arab appearance is. I doubt they will be any more homogeneous in 20,000 years.

 

[Swank]

OK, I'm out.

You are reacting to a post directed at and quoting Silentroamer.

 

[Swank]

No need to be hostile or rude. I was unsure - hence I asked the question.

I am sorry you think people need to be scholars on the books they read in order to have opinions you might disagree with. At no point was I "lecturing". I was stating my opinion and giving my reasons for said opinion.

Ill echo the poster above me - I'm out.

I reacted too strongly to your adamance about the Kynes gender question. My apologies. I did not intend to be rude, but it certainly reads that way. I was just trying to say that you seemed awfully sure of the importance of that aspect and that you may not find it so important if you were reading the book today.

I once stated something about the cool armor suit battles in Starship Trooper, and it was pointed out to me that there are almost no battles in that book. I was probably thinking of Armor and filling in the blanks.

So, sorry to be harsh.

 

[SilentRoamer]

I reacted too strongly to your adamance about the Kynes gender question. My apologies. I did not intend to be rude, but it certainly reads that way. I was just trying to say that you seemed awfully sure of the importance of that aspect and that you may not find it so important if you were reading the book today.

I once stated something about the cool armor suit battles in Starship Trooper, and it was pointed out to me that there are almost no battles in that book. I was probably thinking of Armor and filling in the blanks.

So, sorry to be harsh.

That's ok, for my part I was probably too adamant in my views so I apologise for that. From my perspective - I have a very visual mind and when I read books I paint a very vivid picture of the people and the places. When something gets changed it just jars with my internal image of what I expect. This goes both ways though - I would not want female characters swapped out for male characters (because it would equally jar my internal consistency).

I understand this isn't a problem for some people - but for me I see gender as being integral and informing of the character (I don't believe the character is the same character if you change their gender - even if they can perform the exact same function for the plot).

All that being said it really did very little to dull my enjoyment of the film, I thought it was great and cant wait to see what Villeneuve does with part 2.

I appreciate your perspective.

 

[Rodders]

It's been a while since i read the book so i don't remember the nuances. I always felt that it was the Planetologist role that made Keynes so important to the Freman. They wanted his knowledge and experience to make Arrakis green.