Villeneuve's Dune: Part One (2019)

[Rodders]

It's a shame we never saw a directors cut of Lynch's Dune.

 

[Swank]

Lynch's Dune was designed to look heroic, like a comic book. There is enough exotica in the story already. I appreciate the new film's realism.

While more color is good, the way they did it gives a lived in feel appropriate to a story with thousands of years of history preceding it.

 

[Vince W]

Whereas I'm of the opposite opinion. I feel the Lynch/Smithee Dune has the appropriate feel of age and Villeneuve's could be any time within the last 30 years.

 

[Swank]

Whereas I'm of the opposite opinion. I feel the Lynch/Smithee Dune has the appropriate feel of age and Villeneuve's could be any time within the last 30 years.

I wasnt contrasting the films by the way the feel old, just saying that the muted colors might be there for an ancient feel. Like Egypt.

 

[paranoid marvin]

Lynch's Dune feels more 'alien' whereas Villneuve's feels more like contemporary Earth.

There were some neat things in the new Dune movie like the ornithopter, but personally I much preferred the look that Lynch gave the movie. Tbh I'm still not sure how Villeneuve managed to make a 155 minute film and still not manage to get more than half the book in there.

I would still strongly argue in favour of Lynch's Dune being a good film provided that you've read the book. Obviously a movie shouldn't require the watcher to have read the book before seeing it to understand it, but this film does. And (as has been mentioned above) having seen Villeneuve's adaptation it makes me appreciate Lynch's more.

 

[Toby Frost]

It's a shame we never saw a directors cut of Lynch's Dune.

I think there are various cuts of the Lynch version, which restore some deleted material. I've not seen them, but a friend who works in films has, and says that the deleted stuff is largely the Fremen in the desert, and doesn't help much. I suspect it's one of those films, like Alien 3, where the cut material doesn't exist that would rectify all their problems. Which is a shame, really.

 

[Foxbat]

There were stories of serious meddling by producers during the filming of Lynch’s Dune. It allegedly got so bad that Lynch requested his name removed from the credits. If this is true, it might explain why Lynch’s Dune is more of a glorious Eton Mess than fine Pavlova.

 

[paranoid marvin]

I think there are various cuts of the Lynch version, which restore some deleted material. I've not seen them, but a friend who works in films has, and says that the deleted stuff is largely the Fremen in the desert, and doesn't help much. I suspect it's one of those films, like Alien 3, where the cut material doesn't exist that would rectify all their problems. Which is a shame, really.

To be fair, the Director's Cut of Alien 3 makes the film perfectly watchable. I've no idea how the theatrical cut of the movie made it to the cinema, as the bits it skips make the storyline have huge gaps with no explanation.

 

[Toby Frost]

You're right: Alien 3 is a perfectly watchable film. I've heard rumours that there's an excellent film in the cut material just waiting to be discovered, and I don't think that's likely.

 

[Foxbat]

I've no idea how the theatrical cut of the movie made it to the cinema, as the bits it skips make the storyline have huge gaps with no explanation.

In the past, it was often the case that the theatrical cut had less to do with artistic value or the story making any sense and more to do with time. If a movie was limited to a specific running length (the cut-off point being about 2 hours 10 minutes) the number of viewings in one evening could be increased - leading to more bums on seats - leading to greater takings.

Back in the days of C. B. de Mille's epics, folk had less to do with their free time and some could spend the whole day in the cinema. Then, there came more competing opportunities to fill that leisure time and the movies had to adapt.

I said 'in the past' because this has probably now changed. The advent of streaming and TV mini-series means that folk can watch as much or as little as they want (this possibly even being a cause in the approaching obesity crisis). Even older tech like DVDs help because you can watch a portion of the movie, go do something else and then come back and pick up where you left off.

I think, because movie revenue can come from multiple sources nowadays, the time is better now for theatrical cuts being more flexible and more artitistically coherent with running times, and this (if everything I've said is correct) should lead to a decline in the number of director's cuts simply because there will no longer be such a strong need for the director to put the record straight.

 

[ctg]

Christopher Walken is an evil emperor in latest trailer for Dune: Part 2

"He who can destroy a thing has the real control of it."

arstechnica.com

 

[Vince W]

Shaddam isn't evil. He's a political genius that took steps to secure his powerbase in the face of a rising popular power. Shadam was probably close to being a Kwisatz Haderach himself.

 

[Elckerlyc]

Shadam was probably close to being a Kwisatz Haderach himself.

As to this, I think you're confusing him with Count Fenring.

 

[Swank]

Shaddam isn't evil. He's a political genius that took steps to secure his powerbase in the face of a rising popular power. Shadam was probably close to being a Kwisatz Haderach himself.

Of all the characters that label has been applied to, Shaddam normally isn't one of them. Feyd and Fenring are.

Shaddam inherited his power and position.

 

[Ursa major]

Shaddam isn't evil.

That's Shaddam, who's sane...?

*gets coat*

 

[Vince W]

As to this, I think you're confusing him with Count Fenring.

No, I meant what I said. Fenring was certainly much closer to being KW, but I've always felt that Shaddam had a potential of being KW. Which makes a certain amount of sense since the BG used royal bloodlines for their efforts.

 

[ctg]

I meant what I said. Fenring was certainly much closer to being KW, but I've always felt that Shaddam had a potential of being KW. Which makes a certain amount of sense since the BG used royal bloodlines for their efforts.

Would you accept it under Villeneus alteration? The dialogue in the Part I suggests that the Emperor is in the known when Harkonen attacks, and he's even willing to give the Sardaukers to do the act. In some eyes that's ultimately evil, because it certainly isn't for the good of the Empire to keep Harkonen's in the Spice Business for them being totally corrupt.

 

[Vince W]

Yes, Villeneuve's Shaddam is portrayed as evil. But I can't help thinking of how in one of the epithets of Dune Irulan mentions how her father would have preferred Leto I to be his own son, but political necessities made them enemies.

 

[ctg]

one of the epithets of Dune Irulan mentions how her father would have preferred Leto I to be his own son, but political necessities made them enemies.

Yeah, that is definitely not evil. But in the context of the movies, it has now been established that he's in the Empire business for his own self-interest. Not because he's been in power and doesn't really know how to handle his vast family that include Leto's and Harkonen.

 

[Swank]

Hold on a second here:
In the Dune Empire, all of the Houses are violent and self interested - Atreides included. They are not above Chalmurky, and the fact that Leto's father died bullfighting should tell you a little bit about violent mindset of the people of Caladan.

There is two primary contrasts made - ethics and cruelty. The Harkonnens are unethical and cruel. They are breaking the rules, but are also terrible rulers and human rights abusers. Unlike the Atreides, they have slaves, and will kill just about anyone for pleasure.

Shaddam is not particularly cruel, though entirely ruthless. But he is not depicted as someone that enjoys torture or death.


The fulcrum of Dune is that the Atreides have become two things - immensely popular in the Landsraad. And enormously proficient in combat - due to Halleck and Idaho. The Emperor, who has no male heir, is not necessarily popular and maintains power in large part through the threat of his Sardukar. If it became generally known that Atreides fighters could beat Sardukar in a fair fight, the Landsraad may turn on Shaddam by combining their military and economic forces to oust his house as imperial seat. Which is pretty much how the Shaddam's ancestor became emperor in the first place.

So, though he likes and admires Leto, Shaddam makes a decision to destroy the Atreides to maintain his power and send a general warning to all Houses about rocking the boat. The problem is that his fear of the Atreides army doing favorably against Sardukar leads him to make the unethical decision to secretly and illegally back the otherwise legal attack of the Atreides by the Harkonnens.

This is an interesting moment, because Shaddam's close council is a high level Bene Gesserit, who has a vested interest in the Atreides. However, Jessica screwed things up by having a boy, so the Bene Gesserit may have felt that trying to influence the Emperor was not possible or not worth it considering other available gene lines. So they did their best to warn the Atreides of the peril, and stepped back. What happened after that was largely affected by three things - Paul surviving, and being the KH; Atreides policies attracting the interest and respect of the Fremen; and the Fremen being potentially much more dangerous than the Sardukar (Atreides/BG training and command being the missing piece).



The BG has used the noble families as breeding lines, largely because the politics of noble house marriage are much more easily manipulated and tracked than regular people, but at no point does any commentary suggest that Shaddam, Irulan or even Ghanima's husband have any of the strongest KW genes. So I would disagree that Shaddam is anything more than very smart, ruthless and unsentimental in his quest to maintain status quo.

I haven't seen anything in the upcoming film trailer to suggest that this Shaddam is any different from the book's - except that he looks older than described (spice works wonders).