Game of Thrones: 8.03 - The Long Night

[REBerg]

So long as the final battle is during the day, that's all I ask!

Amen. This episode could have been titled "Clash of the Silhouettes."

 

[Culhwch]

I wonder if Varys still has a role to play. He didn't do much this episode but was left alive.

He does know how to get in and out of King's Landing and the Red Keep without being seen.

 

[Narkalui]

And maybe all of his Little Birds are still loyal to him...

 

[anno]

Few thoughts, Melisandre is a massive character throughout the series and exonerated herself in this episode before her sacrifice to the god,perfect.
Darkness, chaos, not knowing who is enemy or friend, confusion, freezing up,loosening your bowells and not knowing if you will ever see the sun?
Not GOT but from some UK veterans who spoke to me on a ferry into Normandy a few years back.

 

[ctg]

Halfway through the last season of Game of Thrones, we put together an after-action analysis of the major military engagements driving the plot of the series in the season's two central episodes—"The Queen's Justice," in which the forces allied against Queen Cersei got seriously pasted, and "The Spoils of War," in which Daenerys Targaryen, her dragons, and her Dothraki rapid response force swept down on the Lannister army's wagon train and turned it into a macabre cookout.

Now we're halfway through the final season of the series, and we're at a similar pivot point. The second episode of the season—"A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms"—laid out the somewhat awful strategic position of the combined allied forces under the command of Daenerys Targaryen and her Warden of the North, lover and likely nephew Jon Snow. And in the most recent episode—"The Long Night"—that situation reached its climax and conclusion in what could set the record for the least number of photons registered in a film or video production of its length ever.

As we were writing this, we were beaten to the punch by one of our favorite military Twitterati and bloggers, Angry Staff Officer, a master of fictional tactical interpretation, in his excellent but perhaps slightly misguided analysis for our sister publication, Wired. It's definitely worth reading, and you should do so right after you read this—unless you have not seen the episode and are averse to spoilers. In that case, come back and read both once you're ready.

A post-action analysis of GoT’s Battle of Winterfell—through a glass, darkly

In the end, we believe that the Battle of Winterfell played out much as most military conflict does. Success in combat often hinges upon the determination, imagination and ability to adapt and overcome in the face of situations that soldiers haven't trained for. The enemy will not always conform to your tactical paradigm. And fortune favors the bold.

A lot same analysis that we have already been through. I'll share it anyway.

 

[Al Jackson]

A post-action analysis of GoT’s Battle of Winterfell—through a glass, darkly

A lot same analysis that we have already been through. I'll share it anyway.

I am not sure how technical one can get when doing a dramatic narrative, for one thing , in the show and even in the GRRM's books there is a shortage of in battle field intelligence gathering, well there is a little , implied in the planning stage.
Audiences don't care about details anyway.

You know at the battle of Waterloo the main deciding factor was that Wellington's hardened veterans , actually out numbered, would just not give up... they took a terrible beating all day long but just stood firm, they might not have lasted if the German's had not show up at the end of the day, but they held out till then. Wellington called the battle 'A Close Run Thing'.

 

[REBerg]

Audiences don't care about details anyway.

They do care, but probably not as much as they should. A surprisingly high survival rate for the Unsullied in the next episode might be allowed to slide, for example, but I think the appearance of large numbers of Dothraki would draw an avalanche of criticism.

 

[ctg]

Audiences don't care about details anyway.

Oh, they do. It is the details that we often argue over and they cannot be just swiped aside. The problem with these level products is that the writers keep the script and the details close their heart, because they don't want to spoil. They could have used two episodes to track closely NightKing's movements, while the heroes and forces gathered into the Winterfell.

But they didn't. Instead we get merry stories and then a night episode that couldn't show much. In that regards the Battle of Helm's Deep was supremely well done. And it involved intelligence gathering straight from the beginning. It's just nobody expected twenty thousand orcs to land in the small castle, demanding to be let in.

If the dwarves would had had decent hobbit chefs with them, they could have avoided most of the blood shedding by offering cake.

Even in my own work I end up battling with the details that either needs rewriting or expanding. It those things that makes matter interesting ... or too complex for the audience to understand. The save that HBO's crew has is that they're mostly visual elements. Tiny things that can tell so much as the audience makes the connections.

You know at the battle of Waterloo the main deciding factor was that Wellington's hardened veterans , actually out numbered, would just not give up... they took a terrible beating all day long but just stood firm, they might not have lasted if the German's had not show up at the end of the day, but they held out till then. Wellington called the battle 'A Close Run Thing'.

Yeah, but they didn't had to face an enemy that could just renew itself in the battlefield.

 

[Al Jackson]

They do care, but probably not as much as they should. A surprisingly high survival rate for the Unsullied in the next episode might be allowed to slide, for example, but I think the appearance of large numbers of Dothraki would draw an avalanche of criticism.

Well a sub set care, I mean I care but gerd my grids for artistic license .
Yeah know the long shots as dark as they were seemed to show about 95% of the defenders dead!
The preview showed , hard to know how many, but a column of Unsullied marching somewhere.
One thing that gets skewed in movie battles, there are always more wounded than dead,
I don't know against the Army of the Dead,... one has to take it that the wounded were sort of mixed with the dead.

 

[Venusian Broon]

You know at the battle of Waterloo the main deciding factor was that Wellington's hardened veterans , actually out numbered, would just not give up... they took a terrible beating all day long but just stood firm, they might not have lasted if the German's had not show up at the end of the day, but they held out till then. Wellington called the battle 'A Close Run Thing'.

Nope I disagree with you. A simple single reason for answering something as complex as a battle like that is just wrong (plus no)...however this is a thread about GoT not Waterloo, so I shan't take it further

 

[Al Jackson]

You know in the books Aegon , apparently, has a small army, used Dragon Power to put down the opposing combatants even when out numbered.
I thought there were times in the battle when Dany and Jon were slow to scour the field of battle , in fact they could have relit the breaks in the fire moat.

 

[The Big Peat]

This isn't a discussion if the audience doesn't care. A decent amount of the audience clearly cares. How much they care and to what extent that caring affects their enjoyment - most of the hardcore combat/warfare nerds doing commentary videos/pieces are still watching at the end despite multiple "Doesn't really work that way but hey Hollywood" comments - is a different question, but people care.

Personally I am not hugely invested in the details, although they are interesting, unless the details are sufficiently off to destroy the drama. And they were. The Dothraki didn't die because the logical chain of events brought them to that point; they died simply to show off how scary the dead were with no thought of whether it made sense. Once a writer's shown that they'll go around killing people regardless of whether it makes sense, then their attempts to build drama are hampered because I no longer believe it matters whether the chain of events is building a certain way or not.

 

[Al Jackson]

Personally I am not hugely invested in the details, although they are interesting, unless the details are sufficiently off to destroy the drama. And they were. The Dothraki didn't die because the logical chain of events brought them to that point; they died simply to show off how scary the dead were with no thought of whether it made sense. Once a writer's shown that they'll go around killing people regardless of whether it makes sense, then their attempts to build drama are hampered because I no longer believe it matters whether the chain of events is building a certain way or not.

You know the Dothraki horse , of which there was a lot, never showed up again, even is horse wights.

 

[Judderman]

Sir J Mormont and the Dothraki didn't know they were going to get fire on their weapons. Were they going to charge off in to the distance anyway? They could have had a scene where Dany complains about the plan to use her cavalry on a suicidal attack

 

[Ursa major]

Perhaps someone with an interest thought that if the Dothraki survived the fighting with the army of the dead, they'd still be around after fighting Cersei and her allies.

There are a number of people who might think this:

1. those who thought Dany should not be on the Iron Throne (for various reasons, some of them involving personal ambition);
2. those who would rather the Dothraki did not return to their usual "business practices" once the fighting was over;
3. people that would fit in both of the above categories.

 

[The Big Peat]

Perhaps someone with an interest thought that if the Dothraki survived the fighting with the army of the dead, they'd still be around after fighting Cersei and her allies.

There are a number of people who might think this:

1. those who thought Dany should not be on the Iron Throne (for various reasons, some of them involving personal ambition);
2. those who would rather the Dothraki did not return to their usual "business practices" once the fighting was over;
3. people that would fit in both of the above categories.

That would be a fantastic plot line if that was on the actual screen.

 

[Ursa major]

That would be a fantastic plot line if that was on the actual screen.

There's one character left (I think: I haven't watched this season yet) many of whose important actions are not done in front of the viewer (or reader, in the case of the books), i.e. Varys.

I suspect he'd fit into category (2), and maybe also fit into (1)... and thus (3).

 

[Judderman]

Quite a lot of people are saying great things about this episode. I think a lot of those people also like superhero movies. Nothing wrong with that, but I just think it was a similar kind of battle ending.

By the way, I think it could have been interesting if Arya had been shown to put on the face of a White Walker to infiltrate through the crowd. Rather than apparently just having got through quietly. though maybe Walkers can tell if someone is alive.

This review is an interesting positive one
'Game Of Thrones' Season 8, Episode 3 Review: The Battle Of Winterfell Defies Every Expectation Of Greatness

 

[Mr Orange]

I assumed at the time that as the dothraki are horsemen, their best use was seen to be doing what horsemen do best. probably could have waited until the dead were a bit closer though. it was visually impressive mind you.

By the way, I think it could have been interesting if Arya had been shown to put on the face of a White Walker to infiltrate through the crowd. Rather than apparently just having got through quietly. though maybe Walkers can tell if someone is alive.

this would have been cool, if a wight had suddenly attacked and killed the night king and then revealed to be Arya. also would have explained how she got through all the wights. and would have added a good bit of GOT gross factor as she peeled off her dead face.

overall this episode was an anti climax for me. as with many others I could hardly see a thing. and even with my limited tactical knowledge the following seemed wrong:
- trebuchets in front of the defenders and only used for about 2 minutes whilst the dothraki were charging. surely they should have been battering the dead for ages. I noticed that there were even burning projectiles left over next to them as the dead charged.
- surely the armaments and barriers should have been in front of the defenders to funnel the dead into a killing field rather than behind them to cut off their retreat?
- and the whole thing of meeting the enemy out on the field instead of at the castle seemed very odd. seems like more fighters on the ramparts and burning oil and fire raining down on the dead would have been a better idea.

not that I know anything about tactics or have read any of the tactical reviews.

also, i'm not sure why the dead seemed to favour the main characters so much. the unsullied and extra got swamped by a tide of dead, but with jon, jorah et al they all seemed to wait their turn and only come at them one at a time. plus why did they dead all forget their weapons and try to hug the main characters to death? as much as I like almost all the characters left, and as much as I didn't want them to die, I think more of them should have. it seems like the writers are shying away from GRRM's any can be killed philosophy, which is a shame as it removes tension.

jon and dany really underused the dragons, although I am willing to let that be explained by lack of visibility due to the NK's ice cloud.

the red woman / lord of light's arc seems to over? and if it is, what a disappointment.

there were things I liked:
- most of arya's scenes, as usual, although why she needed a special two part weapon I don't know
- that smirk the NK gave Dany. the outcome of her fire blast was obvious from the start, but that little bit of character from the NK was great
- the fact that jon got cornered by the dragon on his way to kill the NK - I thought he would stride in and save the day so it was pleasing to see him cornered and unable to help. also, the look he gave sam before leaving him to be cuddled to death was moving.
- and arya killing the NK was cool, although I don't know what that means for the prophesy.

I think the biggest let down was the end of the NK. there was no explanation of his motives, history or releationship to the world of man. for someone who has been such an integral part of the story since the first episode, I can't quite believe it finished like this - just a boogeyman in the night, nothing else. unless... he isn't finished yet.

also, where the hell did Bran warg off too? this also leads me to believe the Bran/NK story isn't finished.

 

[Al Jackson]

I like the Arya's surprise. Few posts back I noted that it may all been planned in Essos a long time ago.

I was surprised the four Valyrian steel swords were not used against the White Walker Captains as way of buying time for Arya even tho they would not have known that.