Bilingual writers and your inner writing voice

[Azoraa]

@The Judge : barnacles do that
yeah, it makes sense that in a way everyone does that. Thanks for offering some comfort ;-D
I've been sending my first few pages out to get a free sample quota from a professional editor, to just get an idea. And I guess I'm waiting to hit the 30 posts mark to be able to post something in the critiques...

 

[olive]

I was once - long ago, I might add - 'accused' by an American from Hawaii that my English sounded British. Which wasn't surprising really because that's what we get taught at school; British words, British pronunciation, British spelling. American culture wasn't so widespread at the time as it is now, except for some TV-shows like Lucy Ball or the Dick van Dyke-show.
I have since read numerous books by American authors and watched many TV-shows, series and movies that were born in the USA.
As a result I now have not a single notion of what I am saying or writing would be construed as British, American or (most likely) some horrendous mixture (to the native ear). If I ever meet that Hawaiian guy again he won't recognize me.

That happens a lot in general. I'm used to it. Americans can mistake other accents with British too. I've had the same English education in high school you described. Almost all of our English teachers were English. We couldn't say 'Can I go to the toilet?' or something like that without hearing the classic 'Can you?'. It was a newly founded private high school and as they aspired to get a name they imitated the famous old 'colleges' -we call private high schools, college- in the land. So we had a British-American Literature, culture and seminar classes. I also studied science and math in English.

By this you mean: Different languages create different mindsets? Different ways of logical thinking? Or would that be more culturally defined?

@Azoraa is right. If I'm not mistaken linguists treat English as a series of English languages too.

 

[Parson]

@The Judge .... anecdote --- I've not once pronounced this correctly in my life, before today. I was a little unsure of the spelling and I saw "anecdote" I disregarded it; because I wasn't looking for an an-ic-dote (whatever in the world that was) I was looking for an antidote. Needless to say without thinking again about what that really was.

As was alluded to upthread, I can also say that what's unequivocally true for English (that it differs substantially from place to place) is also true for Spanish. I've spent an hour or more very nearly every night for nearly a year (330 days) trying to learn Spanish.* And sometimes I turn to Google Translate for help. Sometimes it gives me a translation that DuoLingo will not accept. And I've learned that partly that's because DuoLingo wants "us" to learn the "proper" way to do things before we know the other more democratic way of speaking. But it's also because, as I understand it, DuoLingo is looking at Spanish from the perspective of Spain, while Google tends to have more a Latin America bias.

*Why? My part of Iowa is becoming more and more Hispanic. And I wanted to do something tangible because of my obligation as a Christian to "Welcome the sojourner." So I decided to learn Spanish.

**How am I doing? In a year's time I "know" nearly 1000 words and can formulate sentences at "nearly" a three year old level. SIGH!!!

 

[Biskit]

I think what olive means is that there are different "Englishs" all over the world, language-traditions -- ways of speaking -- also outside the native-speaking world.
I notice it when I speak with non-native international academic colleagues. We understand each other very well in high-level English, and discuss complex issues. But the whole dynamics change when an English native-speaker enters the floor. Completely different way of speaking...

I think you've hit on one of the core issues - English is not a single language, even within the UK. Given the regional variations here, not just in accent but in idiom, an even greater variation is inevitable when you look at the use of English around the world.

 

[Biskit]

But it's also because, as I understand it, DuoLingo is looking at Spanish from the perspective of Spain, while Google tends to have more a Latin America bias.

That puts me in mind of my Welsh grandmother who was very keen that her grandchildren should speak "proper" English, and not have the local Bristol accent. (OK, there was also a tiny bit of teaching Welsh in there, but that never took.)
So far as my grandmother was concerned, the local accent was "common". So far as my peers were concerned, I spoke "posh". Neither descriptor was meant kindly.

 

[AlexH]

Apparently, we think differently in different languages: Do we think differently in different languages? - BBC Ideas

I listened to a whole podcast on that topic, but can't find it.

 

[olive]

My mother language is an agglutinative language. It's so different than English from the point of thinking. Not even upside down.

 

[Parson]

My mother language is an agglutinative language. It's so different than English from the point of thinking. Not even upside down.

Knowing a Little Hebrew, I can see what you are saying there. It's a radically different way of thinking and looking at the world.

 

[tinkerdan]

I worked with a Russian immigrant. He often left notes on my desk asking me for help with something.
Unfortunately the note would begin in English and end in Russian.
I'm sure he was trying teach me the language; however it never took.
When I would ask him to interpret he would always have a good laugh.
His surprise told me that he did not realize what he had done at the time.

 

[Juliana]

I'm bilingual in English/Brazilian Portuguese (am bi-national and bi-cultural and grew up speaking/reading both). I find I automatically gravitate to English for prose, but I find it easier to write poetry in Portuguese (though I haven't written poetry in many years!). Just something about how each language flows in my brain. When it comes to non fic (I work as a translator - mostly academic), I'm comfortable in both.

Do any of you working in more than one language find there's a genre/style that works better in one than the other?

 

[AlexH]

I'm bilingual in English/Brazilian Portuguese (am bi-national and bi-cultural and grew up speaking/reading both). I find I automatically gravitate to English for prose, but I find it easier to write poetry in Portuguese (though I haven't written poetry in many years!). Just something about how each language flows in my brain. When it comes to non fic (I work as a translator - mostly academic), I'm comfortable in both.

Do any of you working in more than one language find there's a genre/style that works better in one than the other?

Portuguese does seem more poetic than English. Could that have anything to do with it?

 

[Juliana]

Portuguese does seem more poetic than English. Could that have anything to do with it?

Very likely!

 

[Alan Aspie]

Thanks to everyone who replied. Good to know that also others struggle with this.

Not even where the struggle starts.

In future I need to be able to talk and write decent English. But I think in Finnish and will always do so. That's hard. Languages are so different that thinking & emotional stuff just does not translate well enough.

...I have problems with my inner voices. Not just while trying to write but also while reading between two languages.

Me too.

If I read Finnish without disturbance, I might read 100 - 120 pages in an hour. (When I want to read fast.) In English... maybe 40-50 pages if I try hard and 30-40 normally.

It's like sitting in a pit of tar.

 

[Parson]

In English... maybe 40-50 pages if I try hard and 30-40 normally.

Which puts you well into the top half of English readers.

 

[CTRandall]

Thing is, you writing in English will also enhance the way you speak German. You will adapt that richness and that will change your stuff.

I find I have to think in whichever language I'm writing in. It just doesn't work to translate as I go, as phrase structure and idioms are so different in English and German. My difficulty--and good fortune--is that I'm not fully bilingual. This can make for great fun in fiction when I try to write English idioms in German or vice-versa (further confused by a touch of Danish, which often gets mixed up with German in my head). It often results in me "inventing" phrases which sound novel or unusual to others but are direct translations or even mistakes from another language.

English is not a single language, even within the UK. Given the regional variations here, not just in accent but in idiom, an even greater variation is inevitable when you look at the use of English around the world.

And this is another joy of mine. My wife is Scottish and, between her and my mother-in-law, Scots vocabulary and expressions have become part of my normal mode of communication. I'm not comfortable writing it yet, largely due to the difficulty of spelling it, but I'd like to get to the point of being able to properly reflect the range and depth of expression in Scots (or the Ayrshire version of it, at least).

 

[ctg]

My difficulty--and good fortune--is that I'm not fully bilingual. This can make for great fun in fiction when I try to write English idioms in German or vice-versa (further confused by a touch of Danish, which often gets mixed up with German in my head). It often results in me "inventing" phrases which sound novel or unusual to others but are direct translations or even mistakes from another language.

Well, it's your German accent. Unless you are fully bilingual from baby, you have to learn to think in other language, and that is hard for a lot of people. But what I mean with German accent is they way you put together phrases. People detect that, and they'll notice that you're not native, and in the publishing circles that is a problem, because you're supposedly meant to write perfectly. But you really can't, because the mother language is still dominating your thought processes. So, the only option for you is to practice, practice, and practice until you write well enough in both languages.

Thing is, English is one of the world languages and most people who speak it have an accent. It's just they way how things are, but for them, we'll have no choice but try our best on writing perfect English. You would feel the same way for German. With the Finnish, we have learned to love the accents. Essentially they are own mini-languages.

 

[Biskit]

And this is another joy of mine. My wife is Scottish and, between her and my mother-in-law, Scots vocabulary and expressions have become part of my normal mode of communication. I'm not comfortable writing it yet, largely due to the difficulty of spelling it, but I'd like to get to the point of being able to properly reflect the range and depth of expression in Scots (or the Ayrshire version of it, at least).

Spelling can be a challenge. I had feedback on a typo in my most recently published book, wondering whether I was talking underwear or beer barrels. I mentioned "kecks", - a piece of idiomatic English that I use without thinking about but actually have never (knowingly) used in my writing. I just spelled it phonetically, without thinking about it, but I pronounce the "ck" with a softer guttural tendency, more towards a "g" sound, so I wrote it as "kegs", which the spellchecker was fine with.

 

[Azoraa]

@Biskit can you illuminate us non-natives as to the meaning of either?

 

[Biskit]

@Biskit can you illuminate us non-natives as to the meaning of either?

Kecks are trousers or underpants.
A keg is a small beer barrel.

In my particular context, a diminutive character called Big Tom is explaining where his name came from.
"So I dropped me kegs and she looked and she said, Hey.... that’s big, Tom...”
Not unreasonably, I was basically asked why Tom was dropping beer barrels...

 

[olive]

Me too.

If I read Finnish without disturbance, I might read 100 - 120 pages in an hour. (When I want to read fast.) In English... maybe 40-50 pages if I try hard and 30-40 normally.

It's like sitting in a pit of tar.

My academic reading inner voice very similar in both languages but fiction is oooh all over the place if I switch. Trivial stuff is fine. Have you ever tried to read a fictional book in both languages? LOL I've found that the voices of the characters change! Otherwise, I can read fine in one language.

I first discovered this like 25 years ago with Salvatore. Dear Catti-Brie had this normal, stubborn, strong young woman's voice in my head AND then I switched to English, she suddenly turned in to an older woman with a shrill voice and in a style as if she is scolding everyone around viciously. I couldn't understand the accent either! I kept cringing until I learned and got used to it. Now the other one doesn't make much sense.