Yes, but I thought by having 200 cycle batteries in each 150 round magazine, that means you never need to recharge...Although, the gun itself might draw off a little and store it for--whatever, TBD.
K2
Fictional Firearm Tech Questions...
- Thread starter -K2-
- Start date
Yes, but I thought by having 200 cycle batteries in each 150 round magazine, that means you never need to recharge...Although, the gun itself might draw off a little and store it for--whatever, TBD.
K2
Hehe...enough. That's the unknown future tech I'm just going to say works without explaining it. However, with the reduced draw it has already become as significantly smaller issue.
K2
The Ace
Scottish Roman.
The Heckler and Koch G-11 actually meets most of your requirements.
It was accepted as the standard weapon for the West German army just before the Berlin Wall came down, and was never adopted, but it fires a 4.73mm caseless round, housed in magazines of 50. Not only that, but three magazines can be stored on the weapon.
It was accepted as the standard weapon for the West German army just before the Berlin Wall came down, and was never adopted, but it fires a 4.73mm caseless round, housed in magazines of 50. Not only that, but three magazines can be stored on the weapon.
An extremely helpful video bringing up points I need to consider. Thanks much for that!
K2
Something else I might consider relates to another actual project (here in our home) where all motions in vehicles to dampen forces are used at the same time to scavenge/generate electricity to help recharge the system (that causes those motions to occur).
So, instead of powering a coil at the muzzle of the firearm to grab/slow the projectile with the intention of reducing recoil (the projectile continues on but the gun is pulled forward countering the recoil's back motion)...if I magnetized the rounds (using non-magnetic materials throughout the gun), then as they passed through the forward coil they would generate a minute amount of electricity helping to supplement the firearm's needs. Naturally, most motions that I'd like to dampen I might be able to do so in the same manner.
Another aspect I AM going to use, is unlike the HK above and other caseless designs, I'm going to say...yes, just make up...that with a highly developed propellant I'd not need a massive amount of it surrounding the round. IOW, instead of increasing the round's length and diameter (square or hex or octagon in shape), I'll just stack and bond it onto the tail end like a rocket and make it small. If something forces me to reconsider that size, I'd rather give up 50 rounds and use the center two mag stacks to supply propellant much like a cannon has a round and a charge.
K2
So, instead of powering a coil at the muzzle of the firearm to grab/slow the projectile with the intention of reducing recoil (the projectile continues on but the gun is pulled forward countering the recoil's back motion)...if I magnetized the rounds (using non-magnetic materials throughout the gun), then as they passed through the forward coil they would generate a minute amount of electricity helping to supplement the firearm's needs. Naturally, most motions that I'd like to dampen I might be able to do so in the same manner.
Another aspect I AM going to use, is unlike the HK above and other caseless designs, I'm going to say...yes, just make up...that with a highly developed propellant I'd not need a massive amount of it surrounding the round. IOW, instead of increasing the round's length and diameter (square or hex or octagon in shape), I'll just stack and bond it onto the tail end like a rocket and make it small. If something forces me to reconsider that size, I'd rather give up 50 rounds and use the center two mag stacks to supply propellant much like a cannon has a round and a charge.
K2
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I've not calculated it (not sure it can be), and can't obviously test it, and considering it will be a variable rate charge (more so with layered grains), I'm not so sure I want to get that deep into it. Some aspects help in the telling of the tale, others, folks can generate the math themselves and work it out.
K2
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Back in the late sixties I built a Laithwaite linear accelerator ( yes, a coil gun) and demonstrated that Heinlein got it wrong in TMAHM. We could, from the roof of the union building, project an aluminium teaspoon (and I can't think of a less aerodynamic shape, ustersem togethr in clbut they had the refectory name engraved, so when we collected them again {those that didn't get lost} they could be instantly recognised- Ball bearings went a lot further, but were a lot more difficult to find) past the Albert Memorial, and deep into Hyde Park.
I wouldn't suggest the principal for a pistol style weapon - you're too dependent of length (our former was about two metres of reinforced plastic drainpipe, and achieved arond mach 2.5. If you ran your polyphase generator at a higher frequency- we were running on three-phase 50Hz grid power, and could launch three teaspoons a second - or about twenty ball bearings. Decent fire speed, but feed rate is critical - if they get too close, the magnetic field sticks them together in clusters, which never achieve full speed, and won't fly straight, being unbalanced.
Are you sure you want to go away from chemical propellants? I'm sure we can eliminate casings by using a combustion chamber fed with an explosive mixture - gas, liquid or powder - measured by part of the same mechanism that puts one round at a time in place -All mechanics that could be built by a reasonable artisanal gunsmith. Hmm, I take it you do want continuous fire, not single shot? r perhaps a double trigger for independent shots or crowd clearing?
I wouldn't suggest the principal for a pistol style weapon - you're too dependent of length (our former was about two metres of reinforced plastic drainpipe, and achieved arond mach 2.5. If you ran your polyphase generator at a higher frequency- we were running on three-phase 50Hz grid power, and could launch three teaspoons a second - or about twenty ball bearings. Decent fire speed, but feed rate is critical - if they get too close, the magnetic field sticks them together in clusters, which never achieve full speed, and won't fly straight, being unbalanced.
Are you sure you want to go away from chemical propellants? I'm sure we can eliminate casings by using a combustion chamber fed with an explosive mixture - gas, liquid or powder - measured by part of the same mechanism that puts one round at a time in place -All mechanics that could be built by a reasonable artisanal gunsmith. Hmm, I take it you do want continuous fire, not single shot? r perhaps a double trigger for independent shots or crowd clearing?
@chrispenycate ; Thanks for adding your experience with this and suggestions. I've already eliminated the coilgun option and moved onto a 'Nano-thermite Layered Electro Thermal Chemical Thermoplastic Elastomer Hybrid bonded propellant.' ATM, since it's workable technology yet not fully developed (publicly), I'll assume a fractional sized bit bonded to the rear of the projectile will do the job.
That reduces a lot of weight (since now the barrel and bolt mechanism will be the only hardened aspects), and the only coil function I 'might' use is an assist for the hybrid bolt (which is also gas operated), a 'refire' option for misfires (if there is no motion from an ignition, the pulled trigger will retry the electrical ignition and if that doesn't happen a secondary bolt ejects the projectile out the barrel), and maybe--debating--using a coil to grab and slow the projectile to speed, but in the process reducing recoil as it would pull the gun forward.
The rate of fire and number of rounds is electronically controlled with a slide switch (p=projectile, A=Automatic fire):
Vertical-Slide Selectable Rate of Fire – 1p/3p-.3A/.25A/.5A/FA based on 2,667 r/m.
Thanks for the input!
K2
That reduces a lot of weight (since now the barrel and bolt mechanism will be the only hardened aspects), and the only coil function I 'might' use is an assist for the hybrid bolt (which is also gas operated), a 'refire' option for misfires (if there is no motion from an ignition, the pulled trigger will retry the electrical ignition and if that doesn't happen a secondary bolt ejects the projectile out the barrel), and maybe--debating--using a coil to grab and slow the projectile to speed, but in the process reducing recoil as it would pull the gun forward.
The rate of fire and number of rounds is electronically controlled with a slide switch (p=projectile, A=Automatic fire):
Vertical-Slide Selectable Rate of Fire – 1p/3p-.3A/.25A/.5A/FA based on 2,667 r/m.
Thanks for the input!
K2
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First of all, I'm impressed at the precision you have in your development of the requirements of your protagonist's weapon system.
I know you've addressed gas or air powered tech in a few of the posts above, but it does with presently-existing technology appear to fit most of your requirements except for rate of fire and capacity (I'm guessing you don't want your protagonist carrying a scuba tank around).
If you're up for some handwavium, how about vacuum propulsion? A plunger (on rails? magnetic rails?) runs up the barrel ahead of the projectile (low-friction caseless bullet in a low-friction smooth bore?) creating a vacuum that pulls the projectile along (then flips out of the way at the muzzle?) Make it a gatling configuration and you could, in handwavium style, fire it as fast as you like. The only capacity limitation would be powering the magnets.
I know you've addressed gas or air powered tech in a few of the posts above, but it does with presently-existing technology appear to fit most of your requirements except for rate of fire and capacity (I'm guessing you don't want your protagonist carrying a scuba tank around).
If you're up for some handwavium, how about vacuum propulsion? A plunger (on rails? magnetic rails?) runs up the barrel ahead of the projectile (low-friction caseless bullet in a low-friction smooth bore?) creating a vacuum that pulls the projectile along (then flips out of the way at the muzzle?) Make it a gatling configuration and you could, in handwavium style, fire it as fast as you like. The only capacity limitation would be powering the magnets.
Thanks @JNG01 ; Of the hundreds of details in my near future America pertaining to the environment, language, culture, and so on...even the geological aspects under Philadelphia as it might react to flooding, I try to get it as accurate/realistic as possible to help it seem plausible and to keep it straight.
I agree with gas fired weapons (especially due to the volume of fire let alone the rate), as to a vacuum, it's a clever idea except I suspect you'd have the same problem as you do with air, in reverse. Since air can compress it can also stretch. If you've ever pulled on a sealed syringe or similar you might have noticed the more air in it the farther you can withdraw it. Regardless, I'd have to NOT pull the projectile but a sealed driver/piston instead which pushes out the round (otherwise I'd have to seal each round--adding friction--as it would just draw in air out the barrel's end.
I wanted coilgun technology, yet even that with a lot of handwavium seems out of reach. So, I think what I really need is an advanced propellant, some assistance to overcome the inertial start (most of the pressure build-up is just to get the projectile started moving (see chart on previous page)), and some guesses at advancements to really tailor the charge. It's current tech, just not developed yet (that we know), but probable.
Not exactly what I wanted, but... if the day came someone questioned it, I could point to very real research which is very close (and likely exists in a lab or the military as we speak).
Thanks for taking the time to check out the thread and help out...And, welcome to the forum!
K2
I agree with gas fired weapons (especially due to the volume of fire let alone the rate), as to a vacuum, it's a clever idea except I suspect you'd have the same problem as you do with air, in reverse. Since air can compress it can also stretch. If you've ever pulled on a sealed syringe or similar you might have noticed the more air in it the farther you can withdraw it. Regardless, I'd have to NOT pull the projectile but a sealed driver/piston instead which pushes out the round (otherwise I'd have to seal each round--adding friction--as it would just draw in air out the barrel's end.
I wanted coilgun technology, yet even that with a lot of handwavium seems out of reach. So, I think what I really need is an advanced propellant, some assistance to overcome the inertial start (most of the pressure build-up is just to get the projectile started moving (see chart on previous page)), and some guesses at advancements to really tailor the charge. It's current tech, just not developed yet (that we know), but probable.
Not exactly what I wanted, but... if the day came someone questioned it, I could point to very real research which is very close (and likely exists in a lab or the military as we speak).
Thanks for taking the time to check out the thread and help out...And, welcome to the forum!
K2
Welp, I think I have this hashed out as far as I'll take it. Due to the thin round size, I could change it to an alternating 2-barrel gun which makes the RoF even more plausible (and makes the feed mechanism less complex). But, I think I'll just leave that alone for the time being. Here are the final stats to wrap up this thread.
As a side note I bumped up the projectile diameter 0.8mm (retaining the same mass and length), and instead of bonding the propellant to the rear of it, I filled the projectile with propellant in the lost space, keeping them compact.
Thanks everyone for your help!
Lukdai Industries Co. Ltd.: Lukdai Enforcer-II:
Ventilated Hybrid Pistol w/No External Safeties
Electronically Operated/Fired, Gas Assisted
Polymer Frame w/sacrificial hard item cassette
Open Bolt – Pre-chamber Lock Inertial Assist Ignition
550 gr. Indexing Dual Solenoid Feed/Counter-Recoil Bolt
Automatic Misfire Refire/Eject
Gyroscopically Controlled Radial Progressive Stabilization/Mass/Counter-Recoil Porting, w/thumb operated momentary deactivation switch
Programmable Kinetic Energy Harvesting Recoil Arrester - KEHRA
Programmable Magazine Stores Alert Tones
Programmable Variable Velocity 2,500-4,000 f/s
Programmable Rate of Fire 3,000/min. max.
Electronic Selective Fire Switch – 1p-SA/3p-.3A/.25A/.5A/FA
Wt.: E-37.0 oz./F-62.0 oz. – E-1049 g/F-1758 g
USB-C 3.3 Programming/Data port, Cable, and Software Package
Custom Fit Grips w/MCT-chipped safety interlocks, non-ambidextrous
Optional Removable Over Forearm Brace Stabilizers, Mid-Length (9.0”/228 mm)
Optional Removable Shoulder Stock, w/Optional 4-magazine storage clips and forehand grip
Single use SCB-200/4.0-150 Magazines
28-magazines + 2-replacement cassettes + case = 48#
2-LED counters (opposing)
Self Contained 200-cycle Battery
Elec./Gas Feed Assisted, 150-projectile, 6-column casket
25.0 oz./709 g Full Magazine Weight.
4.0 x 17.58/25 - 179.0 mm³, 3.31 g/51 gr. AP-SSF-KP KE-Penetrator
Tuntaloy (proprietary) Amorphous Tungsten Alloy Projectile
Armor Piercing – Self Sharpening Fragmentation – 4SP-3.4D
Pyrophoric – CsRb-Am. Cored – Kinetic Plasma Generating
Enermax (proprietary) Electro-Thermal Chemical, Nano-Layered,
Thermoplastic Elastomer Hybrid, Projectile Filled Propellant
Blend: SAR-43.7438 Progressive Stack Custom Rate Charge
Velocity – Muzzle Energy – Rate of Fire – Notes
*2,500 fps – 708.8 ft-lb – 2,000/min. max. - testing only
*3,000 fps – 1,020.6 ft-lb – 2,333/min. max. - SA only
*3,500 fps – 1,389.2 ft-lb – 2,667/min. max. - mean
4,000 fps – 1,814.5 ft-lb – 3,000/min. max.
*762 mps – 960.9 N-m/j – 2,000/min. max. - testing only
*914 mps – 1,383.8 N-m/j – 2,333/min. max. - SA only
*1,067 mps – 1,883.5 N-m/j – 2,667/min. max. - mean
1,219 mps – 2,460.1 N-m/j – 3,000/min. max.
* = KEHRA velocity reductions
Translational kinetic energy reductions are not calculated
K2
As a side note I bumped up the projectile diameter 0.8mm (retaining the same mass and length), and instead of bonding the propellant to the rear of it, I filled the projectile with propellant in the lost space, keeping them compact.
Thanks everyone for your help!
Lukdai Industries Co. Ltd.: Lukdai Enforcer-II:
Ventilated Hybrid Pistol w/No External Safeties
Electronically Operated/Fired, Gas Assisted
Polymer Frame w/sacrificial hard item cassette
Open Bolt – Pre-chamber Lock Inertial Assist Ignition
550 gr. Indexing Dual Solenoid Feed/Counter-Recoil Bolt
Automatic Misfire Refire/Eject
Gyroscopically Controlled Radial Progressive Stabilization/Mass/Counter-Recoil Porting, w/thumb operated momentary deactivation switch
Programmable Kinetic Energy Harvesting Recoil Arrester - KEHRA
Programmable Magazine Stores Alert Tones
Programmable Variable Velocity 2,500-4,000 f/s
Programmable Rate of Fire 3,000/min. max.
Electronic Selective Fire Switch – 1p-SA/3p-.3A/.25A/.5A/FA
Wt.: E-37.0 oz./F-62.0 oz. – E-1049 g/F-1758 g
USB-C 3.3 Programming/Data port, Cable, and Software Package
Custom Fit Grips w/MCT-chipped safety interlocks, non-ambidextrous
Optional Removable Over Forearm Brace Stabilizers, Mid-Length (9.0”/228 mm)
Optional Removable Shoulder Stock, w/Optional 4-magazine storage clips and forehand grip
Single use SCB-200/4.0-150 Magazines
28-magazines + 2-replacement cassettes + case = 48#
2-LED counters (opposing)
Self Contained 200-cycle Battery
Elec./Gas Feed Assisted, 150-projectile, 6-column casket
25.0 oz./709 g Full Magazine Weight.
4.0 x 17.58/25 - 179.0 mm³, 3.31 g/51 gr. AP-SSF-KP KE-Penetrator
Tuntaloy (proprietary) Amorphous Tungsten Alloy Projectile
Armor Piercing – Self Sharpening Fragmentation – 4SP-3.4D
Pyrophoric – CsRb-Am. Cored – Kinetic Plasma Generating
Enermax (proprietary) Electro-Thermal Chemical, Nano-Layered,
Thermoplastic Elastomer Hybrid, Projectile Filled Propellant
Blend: SAR-43.7438 Progressive Stack Custom Rate Charge
Velocity – Muzzle Energy – Rate of Fire – Notes
*2,500 fps – 708.8 ft-lb – 2,000/min. max. - testing only
*3,000 fps – 1,020.6 ft-lb – 2,333/min. max. - SA only
*3,500 fps – 1,389.2 ft-lb – 2,667/min. max. - mean
4,000 fps – 1,814.5 ft-lb – 3,000/min. max.
*762 mps – 960.9 N-m/j – 2,000/min. max. - testing only
*914 mps – 1,383.8 N-m/j – 2,333/min. max. - SA only
*1,067 mps – 1,883.5 N-m/j – 2,667/min. max. - mean
1,219 mps – 2,460.1 N-m/j – 3,000/min. max.
* = KEHRA velocity reductions
Translational kinetic energy reductions are not calculated
K2
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.matthew.
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Jan 12, 2020
- Messages
- 1,156
What year is this set in again?
She'll have these advanced weapons in hand G-2 *grins
*... roughly 2024. It's actually ALL current/old tech, just not applied altogether.K2
Wayne Mack
Well-Known Member
Given my luck with USB cables going bad and getting lost, why not consider a wireless option? Of course this adds an opening for hacking the gun.
Zactly, why I went a hardwire as it also avoids Radio Frequency IDentification, Near Field Communication, Geospatial Tracking. Also, programmable features are not intended to be adjusted past setting initial preferences. They could be later, but for all intents you'd set-and-forget. The cable would also be something left where her ammo stores are kept and with whomever (Ben in this case) refits her guns every 14 mags (the hard items are sacrificial, so only the polymer frame and some electronics remain).
What I may need to change is my KEHRA and velocity options. 1,500fps is a massive grab...I could have a three stage coil system, I suppose. But why? My initial thinking was as a TKE/recoil compensater set to a preferred comfort. Perhaps I'll still make it a three stage to smooth out the pull, but remove the 2,500fps, and shift the testing range to 3,000fps-SA Testing only (and remove RoF number). Besides that, the RoF (which I can keep being electronic firing) and variable velocities (before the KEHRA add) were just hold overs from when I had this a coilgun, so that wide flexibility is not-so-much now.
Thanks for the input.
K2
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