Does success breed contempt?

[elvet]

I loved Avatar, watched it 5 times, 3 at IMAX in 3D. The experience at the time was bar none. True escapism, excitement--almost virtual reality for me. The story was secondary. It was all about as close to being on another world as possible. Maybe I'm superficial, or just easily amused , but it caught my imagination much like Jurassic Park did when it came out.

 

[Toby Frost]

I've got to admit, I saw it in a huge 3D cinema and I was pretty impressed with the visuals. There's a bit where seeds fall in front of the camera and I instinctively reached out to touch them.

 

[jd73]

It's hard to say generally. I imagine there are people who express a view which adheres them to a certain group, rather than conveys their true feelings about something, feelings which may not even be particularly clear, though they will possibly have very clear ones about how they wish to be perceived/where they count their alliances etc. Equally there may be people for whom a thing is for some personal reason intolerable. Those reasons may be unique to them, like a memory, though others might have similar memories/experiences/etc. But anyway, this is why I don't read reviews. There's just no point. Besides, I have far too wide of a cheeze-lovin' streak to pretend envy at success or to jump on any bandwagon. If I like something, I go all goo goo ga ga over it, never mind how popular it is or successful it isn't. I mean, I'm listening to vaporwave right now, which is basically hold music. I love it (makes me feel so good)

 

[Swank]

Everything negative that's been said about it could have been said about a bunch of other films - there's nobody queuing up to tell us how bad The Fifth Element is, say

Well, Fifth Element is a comedy, and most of the bad things many people do say about it seem like an insensitivity to satire and pastiche. For me, Fifth Element is very much like Gross Point Blank (a romantic comedy that also succeeds as an action/espionage film). It manages to be Space Balls and Star Wars simultaneously.

Personally, I think the key to this is Avatar's po-faced quality, and it's lack of straight-up fun. You can't really like it ironically or completely innocently (that's not quite the right word), the way you can the Marvel films. So many films now have an element of self-knowing kitsch, but watching Avatar is like someone earnestly telling you that the rainforests are important for two hours, as if you've never guessed this before. It's as if it wanted the gravitas of Aliens but the jolly colours of a film for small children. And maybe that makes it easier to ridicule.

Spot on. And I think the reason it doesn't manage to be Aliens is that there is too much exposition to the point that there is no mystery for the audience to discover later on. It all goes pretty much as we would expect based on a summary - there aren't any twists or major bits of jeopardy.

I feel much more invested in the absurd characters in Fifth Element than the straightforward ones in Avatar. Of course, I also think Wes Anderson manages to create more psychologically realistic characters in his comedies than most dramas do, so it is possible that I am just broken.

 

[Rodders]

Success always brings negativity and i think there is an element of critique becoming a kind of badge of honour and it's almost trendy to hate on certain movies.

On the flip side, there could be elements of people overreacting when a movie they enjoy receives criticism. I always get a little defensive when people criticise favourites of mine. Are some of us overreacting to innocent critique?

 

[Pyan]

I think there's a difference between being contrarian and just not getting it. I've never been able to watch Citizen Kane all the way through, mainly because I've drifted off to sleep every time it's been on TV. I try to tell myself "Look, this film has been at or near the top of every 'Best Ever Film' list for the last 50+years", but it doesn't keep me awake. But the point is, I'm not being contrarian about it: I genuinely just don't get the reasons why this film is so adulated.

 

[Parson]

there's nobody queuing up to tell us how bad The Fifth Element is,

Put me in this line! I hated, hated, The Fifth Element.

Well, Fifth Element is a comedy, and most of the bad things many people do say about it seem like an insensitivity to satire and pastiche. For me, Fifth Element is very much like Gross Point Blank (a romantic comedy that also succeeds as an action/espionage film). It manages to be Space Balls and Star Wars simultaneously.

Okay, I did not see any satire or pastiche in the movie. All I saw a super dumb plot, unbelievable aliens, and a woman in an outfit only a man could have designed. --- So maybe I'm too dumb to get this movie?

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But on point. I know that at least among the lot of people on this forum, I'm very much in the minority. Is it a minority of one? But I was shocked to discover that there were those who loved this movie. It's my own reading of it, and has nothing to do with joining one line or the other.

 

[AnRoinnUltra]

maybe I'm too dumb to get this movie?

I'll bet I'm a lot dumber than you and I loved The Fifth Element ...pure Flash Gordon style messing On the other hand I didn't like Avatar -the visuals were great and the idea cool but the plot just felt dour and clunky. Success breeding contempt is a bit strong -I think people sometimes take a queue from others on what's cool to dislike (or mock).
Although it's hard to know -there might also be a bit of 'greatest Sci-Fi film of all time, bit uppity of them to say so, let's see if I can't find fault with it'.

 

[Parson]

I'll bet I'm a lot dumber than you

I doubt this, but I do not doubt that everyone is at borderline brilliant at something. I taught public school for 4 years, and even the children who struggled most with the academic work usually excelled in something else.

 

[AnRoinnUltra]

everyone is at borderline brilliant at something

Of course, was only messing -everyone has their place in the jigsaw and no one piece is more important than any other ...still reckon The Fifth Element was a great show though

 

[Parson]

I agree and I disagree about The Fifth Element.

 

[JunkMonkey]

I've not seen Avatar either so can't comment (or Villeneuve's Dune but I thought his Blade Runner sequel was dire) but there have been times when I have been bewildered by the adulation poured on the most incredible tripe by millions of otherwise (apparently) sensible people.

It's at those times I feel like the little boy in the Hans Christian Anderson story, The Emperor's New Clothes.

Sometimes you just have to stand up and say, "I don't care how popular it is; it's crap! why can't you see it?"

 

[Swank]

Okay, I did not see any satire or pastiche in the movie. All I saw a super dumb plot, unbelievable aliens, and a woman in an outfit only a man could have designed. --- So maybe I'm too dumb to get this movie?

No, no one is calling you dumb. But you are at least aware of Leia's hairdo appearing in the film, but maybe didn't note the 2001 stewardesses, complicated rifles reminiscent of Aliens, Bladerunner '40s retro-future styles in the cars, Galactica uniforms, star destroyer space ships, von Däniken ancient astronauts, random British characters (Star Wars), megalomaniac with cute pet and supporting cast members notable for their previous SF roles.

And I do think it is satire, with a range of SF plot points re-enacted in often exaggerated form.


None of which means anyone needs to like Fifth Element. It is a fun but trashy film. But it was designed to be that way.

 

[Parson]

No, no one is calling you dumb. But you are at least aware of Leia's hairdo appearing in the film, but maybe didn't note the 2001 stewardesses, complicated rifles reminiscent of Aliens, Bladerunner '40s retro-future styles in the cars, Galactica uniforms, star destroyer space ships, von Däniken ancient astronauts, random British characters (Star Wars), megalomaniac with cute pet and supporting cast members notable for their previous SF roles.

And I do think it is satire, with a range of SF plot points re-enacted in often exaggerated form.


None of which means anyone needs to like Fifth Element. It is a fun but trashy film. But it was designed to be that way.

Okay, No I don't remember any of those things. I wasn't looking for send-ups (which I detest by the way). I was looking for a plot, action, believable science, and an ending that made sense. I found scarcely any of those. I don't watch many movies so outside of the Star Wars hairdo, I likely wouldn't have caught any of those. I watched a little of Battlestar Galactica (I assume that's the meaning of Galactica) but that was decades before The Fifth Element. I watched the first Aliens, but complicated rifles seems obvious, why would one look for something there. For the rest I wouldn't have had a chance.

I now see that I was not the intended audience for this movie.

 

[Danny McG]

Sometimes you just have to stand up and say, "I don't care how popular it is; it's crap! why can't you see it?"

This!
In so much of the tripe studios bang out nowadays.

 

[LordOfWizards]

Success breeds envy.

Agreed. And in the case of Avatar: overall highest-grossing film. In 2009, it was the first film to earn more than $2 billion and concluded its original box office run with gross revenue of $2.749 billion (US) I'm not sure you could attribute all of that to pre-teens, it seems to me it's just the mind numbing simplistic kind of thing that the mind numbingly simplistic masses want.

What about Villeneuve's Dune? Highly successful, but highly good. No void there.

Agreed.

 

[THX1138]

Agreed. And in the case of Avatar: overall highest-grossing film. In 2009, it was the first film to earn more than $2 billion and concluded its original box office run with gross revenue of $2.749 billion (US) I'm not sure you could attribute all of that to pre-teens, it seems to me it's just the mind numbing simplistic kind of thing that the mind numbingly simplistic masses want.

Agreed.

Yep. It seems it is all about the mind blowing CGI effects and the end meaning of the movie. The core meaning of the script and story (good or bad) seem to be, well, "Huh? Yea, well, the story had deep meaning. But the effects made up for that." What?

 

[Elckerlyc]

Okay, No I don't remember any of those things. I wasn't looking for send-ups (which I detest by the way). I was looking for a plot, action, believable science, and an ending that made sense. I found scarcely any of those. I don't watch many movies so outside of the Star Wars hairdo, I likely wouldn't have caught any of those. I watched a little of Battlestar Galactica (I assume that's the meaning of Galactica) but that was decades before The Fifth Element. I watched the first Aliens, but complicated rifles seems obvious, why would one look for something there. For the rest I wouldn't have had a chance.

I now see that I was not the intended audience for this movie.

I've never seen The Fifth Element, but on basis of @Swank description, it doesn't sound remotely like a movie I would enjoy. Not my type of humor or comedy. So, without having seen it, I'll join you in your lonesome line.

 

[Toby Frost]

the reason it doesn't manage to be Aliens is that there is too much exposition to the point that there is no mystery for the audience to discover later on. It all goes pretty much as we would expect based on a summary - there aren't any twists or major bits of jeopardy.

I feel much more invested in the absurd characters in Fifth Element than the straightforward ones in Avatar.

It's interesting how grotesque characters can feel more real than "normal" ones. I find the characters in Titus Groan much more convincing than a lot of thriller characters (tough hero, romantic interest etc). Maybe it's because they've got greater depth, or they're allowed more quirks.

it seems to me it's just the mind numbing simplistic kind of thing that the mind numbingly simplistic masses want.

Yes, but so are most, if not all, superhero films. I find the Nolan Batman films especially irritating, because they treat a man dressing up and punching people like some deep reflection on the meaning of life. Going back to the Aliens idea, maybe the problem with Avatar is that it fails to be either either "ironic" or "dark" and therefore its stupidity is easier to spot.

 

[jd73]

No, no one is calling you dumb. But you are at least aware of Leia's hairdo appearing in the film, but maybe didn't note the 2001 stewardesses, complicated rifles reminiscent of Aliens, Bladerunner '40s retro-future styles in the cars, Galactica uniforms, star destroyer space ships, von Däniken ancient astronauts, random British characters (Star Wars), megalomaniac with cute pet and supporting cast members notable for their previous SF roles.

And I do think it is satire, with a range of SF plot points re-enacted in often exaggerated form.


None of which means anyone needs to like Fifth Element. It is a fun but trashy film. But it was designed to be that way.

I've never seen The Fifth Element, but on basis of @Swank description, it doesn't sound remotely like a movie I would enjoy. Not my type of humor or comedy. So, without having seen it, I'll join you in your lonesome line.

Loved this film! It's just a lot of silly fun (though I grant you it's no Galaxy Quest). Anyway Ruby Rhod is my spirit animal so all naysayers can bzz. Bzzz-zzzZZ!