VOTING IN THE WRITING CHALLENGES

[The Big Peat]

I may be wrong @The Big Peat but I do believe that the word 'contest' was deliberately avoided and the word 'challenge' used instead when the 75 was started some 10 or so years ago.

Of course, that doesn't stop people from seeing it as a contest if they want to.

It's not a matter of want, it's a matter of how else is my brain meant to view something where lots of people enter and then one winner is picked?

 

[mosaix]

It's not a matter of want, it's a matter of how else is my brain meant to view something where lots of people enter and then one winner is picked?

Hope you didn't take my post personally @The Big Peat. It certainly wasn't intended that way.

 

[Astro Pen]

This is a small audience and things that don't do well here can and will do well elsewhere.

Yep, exactly. I have had several stories I entered here published outside. The July entry "Astrid" for example, was selected for an anthology in the new year, after tanking here with 3 votes. Sometimes you need to bolster the word count to say 500 or whatever criteria are requested but basically it is the same story.

 

[Luiglin]

Challenge or competition to me are different sides of the same coin.

I don't get dispirited when I enter real world events as I don't know the readership.

I do here because you are a group of peers who I respect for your skills, point of view and feedback.

As such, not doing well is like getting picked last in the playground for a game you enjoy. That always has an impact.

However, back on track and apologies @The Judge for the thread hijack. I still think it's only fair and courteous to vote if you've entered. Obviously, if you forget or get dates wrong like I have in the past that just makes you daft

 

[Phyrebrat]

Then why is it a contest, rather than just a monthly join-in thing with a very active feedback thread?

Is it a contest? I mean, I see your point but don't we write because we're passionate about writing (and damn the critics!)? Don't we? Perhaps I shouldn't channel my day-job as a teacher, but the challenge is the theme, genre and word count. Not the votes. I might be an outlier in that respect but -- and I'll never tire of saying this, so stop roling your eyes -- I joined Chrons with no writign experience. Every qualitative thing I've learnt came from here. And I'd argue that the majority of that came from the challenges.


RE: Feedback thread. If you mean the 'improving our stories' thread then, yes, I'd agree, but IMO the reviews have killed any kind of discussion in the Discussion thread because now it's a case of Victoria or Parson commenting and someone posting 'thanks' underneath. Rinse and repeat till voting opens.

I do here because you are a group of peers who I respect for your skills, point of view and feedback.

Brutal honesty... I think you can write really well, but when you do your Dark Lord stuff I am totally disengaged. Is it well written? Sure, but it's not my bag. At all. I also have a very different sense of humour than a lot of the people on here, so humorous entries are often immediately discounted. Is that fair? Probably not, but the same happens to me. The thing is, you've found something that's your style, and I'm assuming it makes you happy? If so, what's the problem regarding an absence of votes? Do you think you're no good?

I have to say, you're someone who often does get votes (and recently won -- a feat I've managed very rarely), I wonder if there is a deeper issue here with your relationship to your writing?

 

[The Big Peat]

Hope you didn't take my post personally @The Big Peat. It certainly wasn't intended that way.

Oh absolutely not, not even a hint of it being personal even perceived, and I hope likewise.

I just wanted to point out why I was calling it a contest - it's not want, it's just I look at it and see a contest like I look at a flat surface stood on legs and see a table. I know not everyone sees it that way, and I get that people have tried to make it not that way, but it is there and of course some people are going to see it that way.



I think the summation and roots of my thoughts here (and I am not responding to everything individually because I don't want to sidetrack too much) runs thus -

I feel like every year there's a bit of venting about the Challenges, and also a lot of defence of them. I think all of it is somewhat pushing at the wrong things.

There is no way you can have the Challenges in a way where everyone is happy and there is no appetite for change when so many are happy. Maybe instead of focusing on fitting into the Challenges, we should be looking at new avenues to get Chrons members writing and growing instead? What if there was a challenge in the Writing Group, people get three months to write a short or flash piece then see how many people can sell what they did, with everyone providing critique and lists of places to sub to? Or using the workshop to do very specific genre challenges, like comedy or horror or cyberpunk or whatever? Or maybe even novel/short story blurbs, as a way of generating short story seeds and practicing a nasty part of the query?

All things we could set up tomorrow with enough interest (and if people are interested in this sort of thing, maybe I'll start a new thread for hashing out ideas rather than keep dragging this thread off track) in the workshop or elsewhere. I just think this sort of focus might be more useful than venting and counter-venting.

 

[Elckerlyc]

I suppose people write for different reasons, enter the challenges for different reasons and look at the (lack of) votes in different ways. How it impacts people is a personal thing. It's hardly a point for discussion or critique.

Speaking for myself, I joined the Chrons and enter the challenges to seek recognition as a person with (assumed) writing skills (I won't call myself a writer, I have never published anything) and knowing that the genre I love was appreciated, even celebrated here. I have not found such a community in RL. My relatives think I'm a sad person for my love of SF and don't read my stuff.
My very first 300-Worder received 8 votes. There was my recognition! And vindication! I don't necessarily need to win (though it would be grand), but receiving a couple of votes for any entry remains important to me. It's a mix; the joy of facing the challenge and produce a well-crafted 75- or 300-worder and seeking the recognition for that effort. I'm sure it has to do with personal circumstances, but that's how it is.
So yeah, I confess I get dispirited when a story isn't doing well. It's similar to feeling not being understood.
Do people write entirely for themselves or also, perhaps solely, in the hope to receive appreciation for the story they wrought? <Shrug> People are different. Answer this one for yourself.

 

[THX1138]

I'd question whether learning to write in an academic way would be of great use for fiction writers, save as to general grammar and punctuation that could be picked up elsewhere. I'm also not convinced a competition of this kind would work, and still less convinced it would have legs, regularly attracting the attention of members who aren't interested in the ordinary Challenges. But I'm certainly happy to be proved wrong!

Anyone can start a thread in Workshop, so if you can come up with a prompt you think would generate a number of short non-fiction articles from members, go for it!

Just a thought, and you right!

 

[Phyrebrat]

Maybe we should have another bash at the Secret Santa challenges? They offer a great opportunity to get people reading your stuff which is bespoke for them.

 

[Ursa major]

Then why is it a contest, rather than just a monthly join-in thing with a very active feedback thread?

One thing the voting does with regard to the Challenges -- give or take those (I assume, non-existent) people who stick a pin in a list of post numbers to decide to whom to give their vote(s) -- is to get people reading all the entries.

Isn't having what they write read by others something that all the entrants would like (even if it isn't particularly important in the scheme of things for some)?

 

[BigJ]

This is the emotional kick that fights with my logical side which says "don't be daft, you can't please everyone and don't try to”

One of the headline pieces of writing advice is You Can't Please Everyone. An obvious corollary of that is if you have people who like what you do and people who don't -

While watching the first half of the final of the women's rugby world cup the other night (I'd already watched Canada get shellacked in the bronze medal game and didn't stay up to watch the whole game), the announcers at some point made a remark about a player on the field, and I am paraphrasing heavily here; "She may be not be everyone's cup of tea, but she can certainly be someone's shot of vodka."

That's probably not helpful, but I've been itching for a chance to use it.

Also I've never won a challenge, don't often get many votes, am too lazy to put anything up in the "improving" threads for critique, and have no constructive thoughts on increasing voter turnout, so I, uh, haven't much else to offer here. Yeah.

 

[Bren G]

I really didn't want to weigh in here. I tried not too! But, I have had my own struggles with voting over the past two years I've been a member but i feel like I have come to terms with it.

First, I write to win. Like golf, if I don't, I simply am not focused, maybe even lackadaisical at times. But, I think this might be part of the problem. You see, I had some early successes by vote count, even a win. then fell off a cliff over the past year. Why? It's hard to know for sure but I think trying to 'win' is like gripping a golf club too tightly, it doesn't get the swing right, nor the ball nearer the mark. I now try to write what inspires me, what is in my ear, while trying to write the best story I can. That's my new motto. But I remain down the cliff base, and while it can be hard at times to be there for sure, I am ok with it.

Secondly, I routinely find stories that are poorly structured so I do think some can benefit (who knows maybe even me to!), from some simple learning on form and structure. Also, there are also many stories that I like a lot, some even I'd vote for, but are left wanting by the last line. It's tough to see something brilliantly written that just needed a bit more tweaking of the ending to bring it home.

Thirdly, judging by the stories that do get votes, I wonder if comeraderie has something to do with it? There are members that have been together for ages and have built relationships over that time. Why wouldn't that impact voting since it is a very normal thing. We all do it in our personal lives. We give preference to our close friends over strangers - especially during hard times. It's just human nature. It'd be interesting to test this theory using @elvet's 100-worder but then again we would never have a standard sample to form the control group. Perhaps we do no-name 75-worders, where everyone uses a standard font? It might be interesting to see either way.

But I think none of these truly explains why some get votes and some do not as much as personal preference. I see the world through my lens, so why don't you see it my way? Seriously though, that's the big chasm I've crossed. For example, I tend to like stories that are:

1) Simply constructed, clear straightforward (a la : A designer knows he has achieved perfection not when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away)
2) Written with good grammar and structure
3) Have a big idea (about the human condition) along with emotion (but don't lay it on thick!). ie like Black Mirror, Twilight Zone
4) More contemporary sci-fi (I seemed to switch from writing harder sci-fi to this about a year ago. It wasn't conscious. It just was. This probably hurt me too)

Sounds reasonable right? Brendan surely has the lock on what constitutes a winning entry!

Well.. no.

Others may look at my list and state:

1) Simply constructed, clear straightforward = I don't do bland! I want to be engaged by verbs and flowing prose. Bring it on!
2) Written with good grammar and structure - I'm in it for the experience. We're not in grade school and this isn't a pop quiz!
3) Have a big idea over emotion (but great if both) = I want to feel man! Make me harbour your joy, pain and fear!
4) More contemporary sci-fi = I already do a 9 to 5! Bring on the orcs and vampires. I want to escape this mundane world!

Who am I to say they are wrong?

I am sure my preferences are in the minority on this forum. And as experienced, learned and well-read as Chroners may be, it's not to say their preferences are proportional to the population at large. It's a big world. Your audience is out there. I'm quite sure my preferences are not in the majority here or in the population at large, but I can't change. I try to keep this in mind when I parse rejection and feedback, as I remain open to their guidance at the same time.

BG

 

[Pyan]

As a mod who's occasionally responded to a call to check the word-count on stories, and to help form a consensus on whether a collection of letters is one word or two, I'm constantly surprised that contributors feel that they have to use the full 75 words, even to the risk of being disqualified for 76 or 77.
As I said, I don't often enter these days, but I always found that when the story was finished, it told me so. My present effort comes out at 49 words, but I don't think that any more words added to it would clarify it or make it better, though I'll find that out when the voting is finished! Perhaps people should think of the 75 words as being a limit, not a target.

Just my 5¢...

 

[THX1138]

I really didn't want to weigh in here. I tried not too! But, I have had my own struggles with voting over the past two years I've been a member but i feel like I have come to terms with it.

First, I write to win. Like golf, if I don't, I simply am not focused, maybe even lackadaisical at times. But, I think this might be part of the problem. You see, I had some early successes by vote count, even a win. then fell off a cliff over the past year. Why? It's hard to know for sure but I think trying to 'win' is like gripping a golf club too tightly, it doesn't get the swing right, nor the ball nearer the mark. I now try to write what inspires me, what is in my ear, while trying to write the best story I can. That's my new motto. But I remain down the cliff base, and while it can be hard at times to be there for sure, I am ok with it.

Secondly, I routinely find stories that are poorly structured so I do think some can benefit (who knows maybe even me to!), from some simple learning on form and structure. Also, there are also many stories that I like a lot, some even I'd vote for, but are left wanting by the last line. It's tough to see something brilliantly written that just needed a bit more tweaking of the ending to bring it home.

Thirdly, judging by the stories that do get votes, I wonder if comeraderie has something to do with it? There are members that have been together for ages and have built relationships over that time. Why wouldn't that impact voting since it is a very normal thing. We all do it in our personal lives. We give preference to our close friends over strangers - especially during hard times. It's just human nature. It'd be interesting to test this theory using @elvet's 100-worder but then again we would never have a standard sample to form the control group. Perhaps we do no-name 75-worders, where everyone uses a standard font? It might be interesting to see either way.

But I think none of these truly explains why some get votes and some do not as much as personal preference. I see the world through my lens, so why don't you see it my way? Seriously though, that's the big chasm I've crossed. For example, I tend to like stories that are:

1) Simply constructed, clear straightforward (a la : A designer knows he has achieved perfection not when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away)
2) Written with good grammar and structure
3) Have a big idea (about the human condition) along with emotion (but don't lay it on thick!). ie like Black Mirror, Twilight Zone
4) More contemporary sci-fi (I seemed to switch from writing harder sci-fi to this about a year ago. It wasn't conscious. It just was. This probably hurt me too)

Sounds reasonable right? Brendan surely has the lock on what constitutes a winning entry!

Well.. no.

Others may look at my list and state:

1) Simply constructed, clear straightforward = I don't do bland! I want to be engaged by verbs and flowing prose. Bring it on!
2) Written with good grammar and structure - I'm in it for the experience. We're not in grade school and this isn't a pop quiz!
3) Have a big idea over emotion (but great if both) = I want to feel man! Make me harbour your joy, pain and fear!
4) More contemporary sci-fi = I already do a 9 to 5! Bring on the orcs and vampires. I want to escape this mundane world!

Who am I to say they are wrong?

I am sure my preferences are in the minority on this forum. And as experienced, learned and well-read as Chroners may be, it's not to say their preferences are proportional to the population at large. It's a big world. Your audience is out there. I'm quite sure my preferences are not in the majority here or in the population at large, but I can't change. I try to keep this in mind when I parse rejection and feedback, as I remain open to their guidance at the same time.

BG

Some, or many of my stories have suffered from bad grammar. And the critics have been a good, and constant reminder of that.
As a result, I have been trying to proofread my entry's as if I'm the one judging it. Not successful all the time! But trying.

 

[Venusian Broon]

Oh absolutely not, not even a hint of it being personal even perceived, and I hope likewise.

I just wanted to point out why I was calling it a contest - it's not want, it's just I look at it and see a contest like I look at a flat surface stood on legs and see a table. I know not everyone sees it that way, and I get that people have tried to make it not that way, but it is there and of course some people are going to see it that way.



I think the summation and roots of my thoughts here (and I am not responding to everything individually because I don't want to sidetrack too much) runs thus -

I feel like every year there's a bit of venting about the Challenges, and also a lot of defence of them. I think all of it is somewhat pushing at the wrong things.

There is no way you can have the Challenges in a way where everyone is happy and there is no appetite for change when so many are happy. Maybe instead of focusing on fitting into the Challenges, we should be looking at new avenues to get Chrons members writing and growing instead? What if there was a challenge in the Writing Group, people get three months to write a short or flash piece then see how many people can sell what they did, with everyone providing critique and lists of places to sub to? Or using the workshop to do very specific genre challenges, like comedy or horror or cyberpunk or whatever? Or maybe even novel/short story blurbs, as a way of generating short story seeds and practicing a nasty part of the query?

All things we could set up tomorrow with enough interest (and if people are interested in this sort of thing, maybe I'll start a new thread for hashing out ideas rather than keep dragging this thread off track) in the workshop or elsewhere. I just think this sort of focus might be more useful than venting and counter-venting.

I really like this positive take, Peat. If you choose to do an activity that can, or even regularly, dispirits you or causes negative emotions, then I have to say either: change what you are doing and do something that makes you happier; or change your outlook.

Sure, I get the allure of obtaining votes in the challenges, it can be intoxicating. But if that's mostly what you turn up for, then you may have to accept the possible downsides of being 'ignored' too.

Rather I'd change my outlook and don't worry about that. Personally, I've not done many at all this year, but I am lucky to have a physical writing group, and face-to-face critiquing/challenges I find much, much more useful (and fun!), hence I've not been perusing the challenge sections.

However when I do, I take @The Judge's view that this sort of challenge is more about a happy community, than stoking my ego and obtaining 'recognition'. So it's nice just to challenge ones self to produce something under the constraints and to try and be imaginative. After that it is fun and interesting to see what everyone else has come up with, not just courtesy, by reading every entry. And finally I like giving points to others, (cut the number of votes in the 300 to 1?!?!! Nay, I say, increase it to 5 ) I know what it is like when someone out of the blue gives me a point, hopefully others get the same little boost by my actions. Nice.

If I do get a reasonable number of votes, well, that's just a bonus.

Do I worry when I get squat-all? Nope. Apart from the pleasure the challenges brings, as described above, I'm far more interested in long-form writing than these tiny exercises. But the 'market' you are 'selling' to in the challenges is very small and more-or-less is the same group of people, albeit with a small churn. It is a market with a lot of talented, dedicated writers who probably have a very strong view of what works for them. In such an environment, that my own style and ideas can leave some cold, is totally understandable. (It goes both ways, of course.)

TL;DR Try and do something that makes you happy. And if you can't change what you are doing, then change yourself.

 

[paranoid marvin]

Some, or many of my stories have suffered from bad grammar. And the critics have been a good, and constant reminder of that.
As a result, I have been trying to proofread my entry's as if I'm the one judging it. Not successful all the time! But trying.

Asking for, and being able to accept, feedback on my entries has helped me greatly. I submitted an entry a while ago which had a number of grammatical errors, and whilst (I don't think) they altered the meaning of what I was writing, there were enough to affect the presentation.

The thing is that (for the most part) I didn't realise that they were errors, so would have continued to unwittingly use them. They were things I'd been taught at school, but had long since forgotten. From that time (I think) that my grammar has much improved, and any time I'm not sure of the correct format to use I'll pick up a book or do a quick 'Google' or ask on this forum. I'm very grateful that there are people here willing to take time out to offer me constructive feedback, in order to help me improve my writing skills.

I'd also like to say that I applaud those who enter the Challenge for whom English isn't their first language. It's hard enough trying to complete a coherent story in a limited amount of words incorporating themes and genres we may not be familiar with. I cannot imagine how much harder it must be when writing in a second language.

 

[Cat's Cradle]

I'd also like to say that I applaud those who enter the Challenge for whom English isn't their first language. It's hard enough trying to complete a coherent story in a limited amount of words incorporating themes and genres we may not be familiar with. I cannot imagine how much harder it must be when writing in a second language.

Well said, pm, totally agree.

 

[Swank]

An outsider's perspective:

Plenty of voters in each contest, so why are the one or two missing voters an issue that is worth a 3 page thread that partially functions to publicly embarrass them into normative behavior? By the same token, why is anyone subjecting submissions to word counts and then getting @Pyan involved to judge whether a hyphen is concealing a 76th word - which will require that entry to be summarily disqualified (rather than fixed)?

There is much to be said for community and normative behavior, but there is a dark underbelly to that mindset: People think their sense of community standards ought to be enforced. Enforcement is not the mindset of creativity and fun. Writing and reading fiction is creative and fun. Creative people sometimes don't act exactly as you want them to, and maybe that should be a little more tolerated in general?

If not voting is a big deal, the staff could DQ anyone who doesn't vote - just like they DQ anyone who screws up word count. "Problem" solved.

Alternatively, if the 1, 2 or 3 members who are regularly submitting without voting are known to staff, perhaps they could be prompted directly through PM?



Personally, I vote. I don't enjoy reading all the entries, as I know some of them aren't going to be a style I enjoy, but I do it anyway. (But I also shovel my neighbor's sidewalk.) I know I'm never going to win the 300 contest, but I do enter just to see how many votes I can get anyway for my little experiments. I just don't think non-voters are doing anything wrong. Entering and voting are both voluntary (at this point), so I wish that voluntary behavior was respected as such.

Thank you for your entry. That took a lot of your energy.

Thank you for your vote. That also took a lot of your energy.

 

[Hugh]

The "Challenge" is to my unconscious to surprise me. It regularly manages this somehow. I never never take it for granted, and always think each month could be my last entry.

 

[Pyan]

By the same token, why is anyone subjecting submissions to word counts and then getting @Pyan involved to judge whether a hyphen is concealing a 76th word - which will require that entry to be summarily disqualified (rather than fixed)?

It's not just me - any and all of the mods are involved in the process, and there's no question of 'getting' me or anyone else involved. Sometimes people miscount their entries. A lot of people PM the mods to check before posting the stories, and we call for a consensus to reply to the query.

There's no question of forcing anyone to vote, even if this was even possible. I think that all TJ was saying was, that if you're engaged enough in the Challenges to enter a story, it would be good if you continued to be engaged enough to vote for your favourite from similarly engaged people.


Incidentally, this previously came up almost exactly five years ago - read that thread here...