What's the view on "bad" language

[Danny McG]

Some of it is cultural. The the U.K. the word spast*c got for people with cerebral palsy is considered offensive - in the US less so, I believe

Back when I was a lad that was the accepted term.
Even the main charity for those unfortunates was actually known as The Spastic Society (I remember collections organised by the nuns at school)

 

[Jo Zebedee]

Back when I was a lad that was the accepted term.
Even the main charity for those unfortunates was actually known as The Spastic Society (I remember collections organised by the nuns at school)

And then blue Peter did the Joey Deacon thing and it was just a meltdown of mimicry in the playground

 

[HareBrain]

Smeg was great, but I got the impression that it was quite a mild expletive. I did think that Rimmer's 'gimboid' was a made up derogatory word, but apparently it isn't.

'Frack' from the BSG reboot left no-one in doubt as to what it meant. (Although there was a computer game from the early 80s called Frak!)

But "frack" doesn't have an offensive meaning of its own; it's just a meaningless stand-in that only has its power because people know the real word it's meant to suggest. "Smeg" is pure ick. (I understand the writers denied the connection with smegma. I don't believe them for a second.)

And then blue Peter did the Joey Deacon thing and it was just a meltdown of mimicry in the playground

Exhibit #1 for the argument that kids are awful and should never have been allowed.

 

[Ray Zdybrow]

I might be the most "straight-laced" person on this forum, and I for one am put off by too much swearing. And I've never once thought, O I wouldn't say it that way, when there is no foul language present. I do definitely agree that what sets people off is a bit strange. Certainly violence and flat our cruelty should rank higher, but it seems not to. I am interested in the fact that the C-bomb is considered worse than the F bomb. That's not true for me, and I suspect not for a lot of people I associate with. Not that the C-bomb would be considered appropriate, but it would be only a little stronger than an angry female dog expletive.

Don't know if "straight-laced" is right but the strength of your comvictions comes through and gains you respect.

 

[Ray Zdybrow]

Speaking as a reader, not an author, like msstice above I have been put off by language., if it seemingly is used for no reason other than to appear with it or to otherwise impress the reader with the trendiness of the author.
On the other hand. I am currently re-reading Rule 34 by Stross. The language used by the low lifes and by the cops who deal with them is often scatological, sexist or otherwise raw. To those who react no matter what the context,it could be deemed offensive. Set in Edinburgh the "raw" language even comes in Scots versions. But if the characters did not talk that way it would be unrealistic. . It's an entry point to characterization.
So, to state the obvious, it's context, not content.

"Rule 34" though, crivens, what a horrible book. Stross really showed what a disgusting world "tech" is creating, shame he is now putting out just comfortable pap.

 

[Swank]

I was at a construction site the other day, and one worker punctuated half his statements with the F-word. He didn't sound tough, or gritty, or from a different culture. He just sounded stupid.

The first director's cut of Blade Runner contains one (1) swear word, delivered so effectively that changes everything in the scene.

 

[Vladd67]

Of course the F word has many uses, for instance an alleged statement from a British Soldier having problems with a jammed weapon on an exercise as reported by a Canadian soldier.
"F*** this f***ing f***er is f***ing f***ed.

 

[Parson]

For those unsure as to why, it is someone demeaning a woman down to -nothing more than that-. Not a person, not even a woman, just that, and good for nothing else.

Thanks for this. I'd thought it was an insult roughly equivalent to calling a man a d---h--d. I see now that it has a lot more social capital than that. And therefore exponentially more offensive.

*** I was off line yesterday and had no idea what a flurry of postings my simple question had elicited.

 

[Phyrebrat]

It is interesting that in a discussion that started off as a general “why are people bothered by naughty language” we’re one page in and the question has turned to whether is as bad or worse to demean a person with foul language based on sex vs. race

We as in humans. Also we as in chronners. Someone referred to it above. I was making sure that ‘we’ were clear on the difference.

One is used to systematically oppress people in a whitecentric system and to go further would contravene the forum rules.

One could argue the c word is also a word that ‘hates women’ but I think there is a clearly discernible difference.

Very hard to discuss further here.

 

[-K2-]

We as in humans. Also we as in chronners. Someone referred to it above. I was making sure that ‘we’ were clear on the difference.

One is used to systematically oppress people in a whitecentric system and to go further would contravene the forum rules.

One could argue the c word is also a word that ‘hates women’ but I think there is a clearly discernible difference.

Very hard to discuss further here.

As someone who has encountered uncountable biases over my life, over almost every aspect of me, I can only offer my personal experience and discussions with others. Neither is acceptable. The former you elude to seeks to imply an entire group or person is less-than another person. Some might even go so far as to say, imply they are a non-person.

The latter, however, though it may be said it simply expresses a person's contempt or to slander someone's character--as though they are a vicious or cruel person--very often it is said to state that person isn't even worthy of being considered a person. Not just 'less-than or sub-human' as the former, yet of no value -at all- past a part of their anatomy, only good for that, and therefor, not even human or an animal, just a thing, only of use if the aggressor deems it so.

With that in mind on a parallel track, it is also what I have tried to explain to people who toss around the word slave, or consider slavery so lightly. Without elaboration or qualification, people who enslave others consider them 'things.' They are inexpensive, disposable (which is preferred over the risks of abandonment), and of no more value than a paper cup or any other possession. Not just in the distant past, yet today. And that is why the former word of the pair actually cuts deeper than its casual use as used in this day and age.

Let me sum up with this: In this thread, as elsewhere, people always say, "I meant," or to -them when said to others- X is what it means (to them). It doesn't matter how the person who casts it at another feels about it, or what they think it means, or their intended meaning--everyone has their reasons and logic. What counts is what it means to the person it is levied toward, and why such simple words wield such impact.

K2

 

[Ray Zdybrow]

Back when I was a lad that was the accepted term.
Even the main charity for those unfortunates was actually known as The Spastic Society (I remember collections organised by the nuns at school)

It probably didn't help that The Spastics Society had street collection boxes in the form of (fibreglass?) caliper-clad waifs holding begging boxes.
I wonder if those are now collectors' items

 

[Swank]

I had an Irish friend that told me the c-word had completely replaced "mate" in Australian parlance.




He was a very funny guy.

 

[Steve Harrison]

I had an Irish friend that told me the c-word had completely replaced "mate" in Australian parlance.

Not quite true, although I have heard people here often described as a "complete and utter c--t" as a term of endearment.

 

[THX1138]

The first director's cut of Blade Runner contains one (1) swear word, delivered so effectively that changes everything in the scene.

Yes, it was. Very well done and very well delivered to the point you know what the outcome was going to be.

 

[ColGray]

We can’t conflate the n word with the c word

To quote John Mulaney

I was once — I’ll tell you this, I was writing for an awards show once, and I got into some trouble. I wrote a joke for this awards show that had the word "midget" in it. And someone from the network came down to our offices and he said to me, "Hey, you can't put the word midget on TV," and I said, "I sure would like to." And he said, "No! 'Midget' is as bad as the 'n-word.'" First off: no. No, it's not! "Do you know how I know it's not," I said to him, "is because we’re saying the word ’midget,' and we’re not even saying what the 'n-word' is! If you're comparing the badness of two words, and you won’t even say one of them? That's the worse word.

Also, I don't mean to gloss over what, like, little people have been through in this country, but you cannot compare the plight of midgets to African-Americans. That is outrageous! Midgets were never enslaved... unless you count the Wonka factory. So we get into this argument, we're going back and forth, he goes, "You can't put that word on TV.”
And I said, "I want to," and he said, "If you put that word on TV, there could be a protest of midgets on this building!"
And I said, "Promise?"

 

[ColGray]

One of those big, fun, lightbulb-turning-on moments in life is when you realize you don't get to dictate how others feel.

Some people arrive at that realization when they're young. Many realize it as teenagers--and many only find out later. I've got a friend who only found out during their divorce.

It also means that intention + language choice is more important than language choice. Why does someone choose one word over the other? Education level/culture/trying to look tough? Sensitivity/Desensitized to language? Laziness? Harm?

I just finished reading, A SPLINTER IN THE SKY (recommended!) and the MC is from a conquered people, living in the heart of her people's conqueror. I don't think i clocked any overt swears (there were a few, She swore softly, comments) but the casual racism and other-ing was brutal. TLDR: everything European colonialists said about Africans and Native Americans, they say about the MC. The MC is constantly referred to as a "savage". One word. Not a slur. Not a swear. Devastating in context because the intent, inference and denigration are crystalline.

That said, and to go back to OP's question: YA with a swears is a tough sell and a major turn off to libraries and schools. If that matters to you, there's probably ways to achieve the emotion and intention with words that won't get your book placed in the Nope bin.

 

[Cthulhu.Science]

Not a fan of the public use of "bad words."

I was at a casual restaurant -- order at the counter, they bring your food to your table -- and they chose to put carved wood signs with letters 4 inches (10 cm) high -- "Don't order f----in here" "Order f----in here" -- written out but without the ending "G". I'm still flabbergasted thinking about it. I really don't want to look at the f-word written out. This site bans the f-word written out.

In the US, political "conservatives" think it is great to put up large signs and flags that say, "F___ Biden" written out. You know, "Family Values."

Frankly, "bad words" in TV and movies doesn't feel "natural or gritty" to me so much as lazy writing. The argument that because there are individuals who use "bad" words regularly then all people of certain "classes" must only use "bad" words all the time is simply lazy.

 

[Cthulhu.Science]

I was at a construction site the other day, and one worker punctuated half his statements with the F-word. He didn't sound tough, or gritty, or from a different culture. He just sounded stupid.

I have worked on construction sites. There are a wide variety of people on construction sites from people with college degrees to people that look at the construction trades as a career and hope to eventually have more responsibility and work with clients, to people that have trouble making it to the site every day. Turns out that not everyone looks to "bad words" as the way to communicate.

 

[Vladd67]

Not a fan of the public use of "bad words."

I was at a casual restaurant -- order at the counter, they bring your food to your table -- and they chose to put carved wood signs with letters 4 inches (10 cm) high -- "Don't order f----in here" "Order f----in here" -- written out but without the ending "G". I'm still flabbergasted thinking about it. I really don't want to look at the f-word written out. This site bans the f-word written out.

In the US, political "conservatives" think it is great to put up large signs and flags that say, "F___ Biden" written out. You know, "Family Values."

Frankly, "bad words" in TV and movies doesn't feel "natural or gritty" to me so much as lazy writing. The argument that because there are individuals who use "bad" words regularly then all people of certain "classes" must only use "bad" words all the time is simply lazy.

With respect and not wanting to wander in to politics there are just as many signs around saying F*** Trump conservatives don't have a monopoly on childish sign writing.

 

[Swank]

With respect and not wanting to wander in to politics there are just as many signs around saying F*** Trump conservatives don't have a monopoly on childish sign writing.

But they do have the monopoly on claiming the moral high ground.