Tracing the Origins of Fantasy

A fantastical event is no more nor less fictional than a perfectly ordinary one in the same story if neither one happened and the tale is a product of the author's imagination. Fiction is fiction, no matter how plausible (or the reverse) the plot and characters. I could write a story about milking a cow and it would be pure fiction, because it happens that is something I have never done, though many have done it before me. Some of those may have written nonfiction accounts of their experiences in doing so.

Somewhere along the line in this discussion we started conflating fantasy and fiction, but they are not the same thing at all.

And it is even more than whether or not writer and reader think it could have happened, though that is part of it. But there are a number of literary works with fantastical events and the author insists that they do not write fantasy, and their books are not shelved with genre fiction, nor reviewed as such. It is sometimes partly to do with the whole body of a writer's work. If they are known as mainstream or literary writers before, their new work may gain the same designation, though it is awash in fairies and magical beasts.

The origins of fantasy may be hard to trace, especially at this late date. But the inspirations for fantasy as we know it today, may be a more fruitful inquiry.
 
A long time ago I was told Art is what the Artist says it is.
The viewer, reader, consumer may have a different take on it but that doesn't change the motivation and intention of the originator/creator.
After that does it really matter?
I think X, you say Y, someone calls it Z...
Some of the material we now call "fantasy" wasn't labeled that way by the author or anyone else.
 
Some of the material we now call "fantasy" wasn't labeled that way by the author or anyone else.

That's a good point - while The Iliad will sometimes get a mention as a "first fantasy book", it certainly wouldn't have been regarded as that by the people of the time. In many ways, with its themes of honour and courage, it was almost certainly regarded as a practical guide to living certainly into the Roman imperial period.

Early stories of King Arthur might be contenders as they were clearly romances on a theme of history, but for the first true modern novel - and a fantasy at that - I think it's Cervantes' Don Quixote that usually gets a mention. Interestingly enough, a key theme seems to be humanity moving from a familiar world of myths and chivalry, to a more mundane contemporary society - something that often gets echoed in modern fantasy.
 
I would tend to disagree with those who so easily ignore epic poetry.

There seem to be enough elements of epic fantasy in the epic poem to argue that indeed Gilgamesh might be the first of recorded fantasy which at the time was considered Mythology.

However oral fantasy could be much earlier than written form so we might have the residue of some oral tradition that exists today that could be traced prior to Gilgamesh.
 
I would tend to disagree with those who so easily ignore epic poetry.

There seem to be enough elements of epic fantasy in the epic poem to argue that indeed Gilgamesh might be the first of recorded fantasy which at the time was considered Mythology.

However oral fantasy could be much earlier than written form so we might have the residue of some oral tradition that exists today that could be traced prior to Gilgamesh.

Gilgamesh does fit the bill as a work of fantasy. In way He was history first superhero too. And he even had a sidekick in Enkidu . I would actually to see someone do more stories about both the men. (y) :cool:
 
I've read Owen Barfield often enough to suspect that, when we speculate about the ancient poetic makers such as Homer, we are likely to beg certain questions. We assume that they and their world were pretty much like us and ours, except that we know a lot more than they do thanks to geographical exploration, the spread of literacy, the systematic use of the scientific method, and so on. We wonder how much of what they wrote, they wrote out of ignorance and erroneous ideas about the world, and how much was written, consciously, as fantasy, meaning by that the invention of material that they knew perfectly well as not true.

I suspect there's a lot of anachronism not just in our ideas about their ideas, but our assumptions about their minds.

In ordinary daily life, we experience the world as a series of objects that we look at and ourselves as, in the eyes of others, objects, and our consciousness as something centered in our heads and generated by brain activity. We touch our heads with a forefinger when we catch ourselves forgetting something, because we suppose consciousness is something going on in our skulls. We read articles in the popular press that hardly know whether there is a difference between "brain" and "mind."

People didn't always experience conscience-and-cosmos this way.

A way of getting at a difference between ourselves and the ancients (which could include people from even the Middle Ages, etc.), is to consider the word "genius." To us, "genius" is an aspect of a person. Einstein was a genius -- he was very smart, etc. But "genius" used to mean a kind of tutelary spirit that might descend upon a person, enabling him or her to do something extraordinary, and maybe even being a sort of possession of the person, but still distinct from that person. I'm not saying they were right and we're wrong or vice versa, but that they may have experienced poetic inspiration differently than we do (cf. Plato's dialogue Ion, etc.).

And nature or cosmos were experienced differently, too. For them "it" was pervaded with significance and a wise person sought to align himself or herself with the order of nature. For us, meaning or significance is something a person might or might bring to the experience of nature, cosmos, life, influenced by "society." The modern outlook -- the stuff taught in schools of education -- is that there's no inherent meaning in anything, just what's socially constructed. The ancients would have seen society, rather, as reflecting permanent and perennial reality (and as running into trouble when it doesn't thanks to human pride, ignorance, etc.).

I think an ancient poet probably felt that he or she was receiving images, words, etc. "from without," or that nature or cosmos or the gods were speaking through him or her. I don't mean to be taken to be saying the poet was in a trance or something. But there was more of a sense, I suppose, that something was being imparted, given. To be sure the poet's own skill came into play -- there was a lot of emphasis on the teaching of rhetoric. (For us, "rhetoric" even tends to have a bad connotation, e.g. "I'm sick of all that political rhetoric.")

So -- I'm not sure the ancient poet really thought in terms of the epic or saga as something invented or not invented, factual or fantastic. Were the great myths made consciously by individuals? I wouldn't bet on it. I suspect, rather, that they were experienced not as "explanations" of nature, but in a sense were given by nature ("nature" was different then) speaking in human souls.

I might be mistaken about a lot of this. For one thing, I don't know how close the things we call myths and read in books by Edith Hamilton, etc. are to what the ancients told and sang. Language itself was different. Barfield points out how, for us, the ancient Hebrew word ruach or the Greek pneuma have to be translated "breath" or "wind" or "spirit" by English translators, because we now experience these as distinct things. It wasn't necessarily always so. We separate as "literal" or "metaphorical" what may once have been a unity.

If that's so, then we may tend to misunderstand myth-making, poetry, fantasy, etc. the more the farther back in time we go.

But the study of words can help us recover something of the older consciousness. "Blood" might be a good one. They knew a lot less about the physical side of nature and so didn't have the medicines we do, but they were also, evidently, a lot less alienated than we are. What would be a characteristic physical artifact for our time? You think maybe a personal computer? But maybe a better choice to represent us would be a suicide note written by a physically healthy adolescent with a comfortable home, plenty to eat, little hard labor to do, and so on. Every year thousands of young persons enjoying these blessings can think of nothing more attractive to do than "ending it all." How very weird we are....

Barfield encourages us to read widely and deeply in literatures from before our time, and, as we do so, perhaps we will become more cautious about assumptions about the people who lived long ago, and even about ourselves.
 
I suspect there's a lot of anachronism not just in our ideas about their ideas, but our assumptions about their minds.
Have you read Origin of Consciousness in the Bicameral Mind? People were likely not always like they have been over the last several hundred years.
 
I haven't read Jaynes's book, but I have read Barfield's review of it. : )
 
This is facinating and there is a lot of merit to this speculation--However...
I've read Owen Barfield often enough to suspect that, when we speculate about the ancient poetic makers such as Homer, we are likely to beg certain questions. We assume that they and their world were pretty much like us and ours, except that we know a lot more than they do thanks to geographical exploration, the spread of literacy, the systematic use of the scientific method, and so on. We wonder how much of what they wrote, they wrote out of ignorance and erroneous ideas about the world, and how much was written, consciously, as fantasy, meaning by that the invention of material that they knew perfectly well as not true...[etc]
...I'm not all that certain that it even effects the discussion here.
What I mean by that is that those elements this epic poetry, as we see them today, are based on translations and interpretations that might very well miss some important aspects of the time they were written; however it is not what we don't know or understand that underscores whether these are an influence on modern fantasy or even the origins of modern fantasy. Because of the way they are mostly present to us in the present, they have been an influence on how fantasy as we see it today did evolve and that doesn't rely on whether or not the authors considered it to be fantasy.

A lot of today's fantasy takes legends--myths--even religious beliefs and bend and extrapolate to create the current fantasy being published and to some extent we could determine that they all have some influence on the origin of fantasy. And who is to say just what today's authors believe. Some when asked don't quite know where all the inspiration came from--perhaps they believe voices told them what to write(they just know better than to express that thought).

When I look back on fantasy I see The Odessey and Illiad and Gilgamesh and Beowulf and King Arthur and Norse Mythology...etc. They all become the bits from which the present day fantasy is shaped. Whether intended or not as the origin--they are.

However, it seems that the style and epic nature of these are as much and a stronger influence on the fantasy of today. The tradition of the story itself and the heroic nature of the players within and the journey and to a large extent even the underlying moral narrative all contribute. The birth of fantasy clearly has ties even to the oral tradition of storytelling, regardless of the original intent of that storytelling.
 
Because of the way they are mostly present to us in the present, they have been an influence on how fantasy as we see it today did evolve and that doesn't rely on whether or not the authors considered it to be fantasy.
If the Iliad is fantasy just because it influenced purpose-written fantasy, than medieval history is just as much "fantasy" for its influence on the genre.
 
That's a weird logical conclusion...sorry I was unclear.
If the Iliad is fantasy just because it influenced purpose-written fantasy, than medieval history is just as much "fantasy" for its influence on the genre.
I wasn't making any of that fantasy-However there is no denying that in the scope of today's fantasy it has an influence. Influence on does not equal making it fantasy. You can make of it what you want. And yes...all of history can influence fantasy--that was the point. That does not make history fantasy...however when there is limited evidence and translation going on I'm not sure that we can substantially consider all history to be accurate and not prone to exaggeration or mutilation, which in turn might be perceived as fiction to some extent.
 
That's a weird logical conclusion...sorry I was unclear.

I wasn't making any of that fantasy-However there is no denying that in the scope of today's fantasy it has an influence. Influence on does not equal making it fantasy. You can make of it what you want. And yes...all of history can influence fantasy--that was the point. That does not make history fantasy...however when there is limited evidence and translation going on I'm not sure that we can substantially consider all history to be accurate and not prone to exaggeration or mutilation, which in turn might be perceived as fiction to some extent.
Then I'm not sure of your point. Either the Iliad was intended as fantasy fiction or it was not - which I thought was the point of the discussion: What are the origins of the genre fantasy? Extolleger's post was about how Homer may have not even understood the idea of fiction the way we do, lending further support to the idea that fantasy was something fairly new. Your rebuttal makes it sound like it is fantasy because it influenced fantasy, but that really doesn't work as lots of different things are influential on the genre.

I think it does matter whether the author thinks they are writing a kind of fantasy or doing something else, because fantasy is a purposeful fiction construction rather than just a rumor, exaggeration or misreported event. Homer may have considered himself much closer to a journalist, who also sometimes get their facts wrong today.
 
No: part of what we're doing is determining what we perceive as the origins of fantasy--We can't say for certain what those epic poems were all about, but they do stand up in our evolution to fantasy as the start for the archetype of what we have today. We can make what we want of them by thought experiment to determine that the poet wouldn't perceive fantasy the way that we do, however that doesn't matter to this discussion because in general those who have written our fantasy see them as having the fantasy archetype and for many, the roots of their work come out of that.

Unless you are ready to prove that our fantasy writers had the same mind as those older poet and that it was so far from where we are; keeping in mind that we haven't proven that those poets were that far from where we are.

I guess that one question should be: can we prove that those epic poems were factual historical documents that were the unvarnished truth of real events as they happened?

I suspect it's possible that the writers of the epics might have thought it was truth from perhaps some oral tradition passed down.
However, with no record beyond what is in the head--they would have to be operating on a level above us mentally to not have some deviations from the original when there is no written record to fall back on unless they witnessed the entire events and even then there is room for possible embellishment happening unless we are dealing with some mental giants.

I suppose if you believe in divine inspiration and these poets were so divinely inspired; then these records through epic poetry would be accurate fact.
Note that I'm not saying that the poets think they are divinely inspired--you have to think they are--otherwise to you this is possible fiction based around possible real events or maybe even total fiction-even if it is written as a moral guide.

My Point though is that regardless of what they intended to write; our fantasy archetypes are close enough to the epic poem that it is likely that our fantasy has roots in the epic poetry and for us they stand as the first model of that type of story. So even if they aren't considered fantasy they are still the origin.
 
My Point though is that regardless of what they intended to write; our fantasy archetypes are close enough to the epic poem that it is likely that our fantasy has roots in the epic poetry and for us they stand as the first model of that type of story. So even if they aren't considered fantasy they are still the origin.
The problem I see with this is they are fantasy from our viewpoint in the 21st Century, but they would have been more like SF for the people at the time, since the events in the stories don't involve forces thought to be impossible (as in modern fantasy magic), but forces and creatures that are speculated to either exist or be in the realm of possibility. When the biggest technical advancement of the age is the saddle, riding a boat to unexplored lands is the equivalent of traveling to Jupiter.
 
Wouldn't we like to know more about how the storytellers and their audiences thought and felt "back then" when various tales and myths were told?

What were the occasions for the storytelling? Who were the tellers, who the audiences? There's -- for us, and we'd think surely for them -- such a different feeling as between the Norse story of Odin giving an eye and hanging on the World-Tree to gain wisdom for himself, on one hand, and the story of Thor's hammer being stolen by the giants and so he disguises himself as a bride to take them off guard; or between the story of Hades's rape of Persephone, and the story of Hephaestus catching Aphrodite and Ares in bed. The former stories seem -- to us -- to possess gravity and a sense of the numinous, while the latter stories of each pair seem like "merry tales." But I wouldn't assume that people telling the merry tales thought they were fictions and the former stories were true. It might very well be that the more courtly reciters sometimes prefaced their recitations with something like this, the "The story is told in Chios that long ago..." and others didn't have "authenticating" frames.

A key difference, though, between the ancients and medieval, and ourselves, is their high regard for the excellent telling of an existing story. As C. S. Lewis says somewhere, if the older poets and audiences were to hear of our high regard for new inventions, they might have said something olike, "Oh, surely things have not come to the point that we must do that."
 
I'm not sure I'd lead with SF not being fantasy...

The problem I see with this is they are fantasy from our viewpoint in the 21st Century, but they would have been more like SF for the people at the time, since the events in the stories don't involve forces thought to be impossible (as in modern fantasy magic), but forces and creatures that are speculated to either exist or be in the realm of possibility. When the biggest technical advancement of the age is the saddle, riding a boat to unexplored lands is the equivalent of traveling to Jupiter.
...Although some level of SF might not be immediately thought of as fantasy--I don't think it's that difficult for most people to discern that Vernes and Wells are considered as much fantasy as they are science fiction authors. However it is easier to swallow the notion that these poets thought this was their form of scripture-than anything else. However we are not examining how they obtained Fantasy--rather we are examining how we obtained it and I don't think you can strip out those epics from our present etymology without leaving a black hole through which somehow fantasy as we know it just miraculously appeared out of nowhere.
 
I'm not sure I'd lead with SF not being fantasy...


...Although some level of SF might not be immediately thought of as fantasy--I don't think it's that difficult for most people to discern that Vernes and Wells are considered as much fantasy as they are science fiction authors. However it is easier to swallow the notion that these poets thought this was their form of scripture-than anything else. However we are not examining how they obtained Fantasy--rather we are examining how we obtained it and I don't think you can strip out those epics from our present etymology without leaving a black hole through which somehow fantasy as we know it just miraculously appeared out of nowhere.
SF could be viewed as the fiction of the what could be, while fantasy is usually can't.

In terms of where current fantasy comes from, I think an enormous debt is likely owed to romantic literature as an earlier form of wish fulfillment fiction. The audiences are in many ways the same.
 
SF could be viewed as the fiction of the what could be, while fantasy is usually can't.

In terms of where current fantasy comes from, I think an enormous debt is likely owed to romantic literature as an earlier form of wish fulfillment fiction. The audiences are in many ways the same.

Some have argued that that Edmund Spencer's The Fairy Queen should fit the fantasy genre even though it's fantasy elements a poem an not a prose work


Vathek by William Beckford written 1786 is often categorized as a Gothic novel but, it doesn't quite fit that particular.category . It's more a fantasy novel then anything else.
 
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Yes in many cases it is what could be--at the time--with what we know..
SF could be viewed as the fiction of the what could be, while fantasy is usually can't.
...and then later it turns out to be--not so much and could never happen.

Oh--I just realized that puts us back with those ancient poets--so maybe we don't think that much differently; we are merely privy to a more complete knowledge.[Yet never enough.]

I don't really think its valid to be thinking of it as what could be more than what it truly is, which is what-if-it could be.
What if we could fly to the moon--and then a whole lot of; if we could maybe this is the way and some vague description of the power necessary along with the technology needed for a ship to survive to how would we exist in vacuum(though some envisioned us finding enough oxygen on the moon to exist without assistance). They didn't always get it right and the fact that we made it to the moon does not excuse all the other fiction that was involved in how they perceived it in their what if.

Also; just because we can now go to the moon doesn't excuse the fantasy of all those stories. At the time they were written they could not have made it to the moon with their current technology--the cleverest of them were always careful to be vague about how we would do it and the less clear 'the how' the better; however it was still fantasy until we made it into space. (And we got a few things wrong in the fiction.)

The same could be said about sailing around the world.(Although there were multiple levels of fantasy involved here that were at odds with each other.)
Some believed there were dragons out there and then that the ship would catastrophically fall off the earth.
The dragons and the fall turned out to be much more fantasy than the notion that one could circle around and eventually reach the place they came from.

It took a bit more science and some courage to eventually prove there were no dragons--or maybe they moved on when they saw us coming.
As it was they just barely had the technology to make it to the new world and had there only been ocean between Europe and India we might have taken a longer time to get there with many undocumented lost expeditions.
 
Also; just because we can now go to the moon doesn't excuse the fantasy of all those stories.
I'm definitely not following. Are you saying that 2001 was a fantasy in the moon parts because it was made before an actual moon landing?

It seems like you want to call any "disproved" science fiction 'fantasy', just because it is no longer accurate. No fiction is ever going to remain 'accurate'.
 

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