Tracing the Origins of Fantasy

[tinkerdan]

No I'm just saying that separating fantasy and fiction is ridiculous except when trying define genre's as a means of defining readers. Fantasy is fiction and it is so much more than just something that we presently believe will never happen.

What I mean by that is that had someone written a novel about traveling from Spain directly to India prior to any voyages then that--barring some beliefs--might have been a fiction similar to what you try to call science fiction. However what would you call it once someone gets stopped less than half way there by a huge continent that no one thought about. The entire voyage begins to look like a fantasy--even the notion of getting to India doesn't prove true until much latter. Even once making it to India--the voyage is still fantasy because it left out the biggest obstacle.

However this thread is about the origin of fantasy as it is called these days and I believe it is intimately tied to fiction. The beauty is that no one else here has to accept my WAG about the whole thing.

 

[tinkerdan]

To get back closer to topic.
this is an interesting quote from out of wikipedia--if you believe wikipedia is more than just a fiction.

It was in the late 19th and early 20th centuries, that modern fantasy genre first truly began to take shape. The history of modern fantasy literature begins with George MacDonald, the Scottish author of such novels as The Princess and the Goblin and Phantastes the latter of which is widely considered to be the first fantasy novel ever written for adults.

Note key words here 'written for adults'.

If you subscribe to his being a jump off point then read his A DISH OF ORTS and perhaps see where his inspiration might be drawn from

A Dish of Orts, by George Macdonald

 

[BAYLOR]

I'm definitely not following. Are you saying that 2001 was a fantasy in the moon parts because it was made before an actual moon landing?

It seems like you want to call any "disproved" science fiction 'fantasy', just because it is no longer accurate. No fiction is ever going to remain 'accurate'.

2001 is, like many science fiction films , television series books and stories of yesteryear , a now obsolete vision of the future.

 

[Extollager]

To get back closer to topic.
this is an interesting quote from out of wikipedia--if you believe wikipedia is more than just a fiction.

Note key words here 'written for adults'.

If you subscribe to his being a jump off point then read his A DISH OF ORTS and perhaps see where his inspiration might be drawn from

A Dish of Orts, by George Macdonald

I'm glad to see the great George MacDonald mentioned here. But he was a follower of Wordsworth and, more to the point, Coleridge, and Coleridge has a good claim to have founded modern fantasy. Read his (unfinished) poem "Christabel." Put it into pulp prose and you'd have something suitable for Weird Tales. Put it into good literary prose and you'd have something better. A medieval setting, an imaginary locale (if not yet an imaginary world), a suggestion of heroism, and a vampirish beauty, etc. -- it's clearly a forerunner. Take Coleridge's poem "Kubla Khan" -- all of Lord Dunsany's fantasy comes out of Kubla's overcoat. As for the "Ancient Mariner" -- here you have the curse, the long journey into remote lands, the supernatural beings... There's also Browning, in his Childe Roland poem -- the knight who came to the "dark tower." But then that reminds us of an old rhyme in Shakespeare's King Lear; and of how his late plays The Tempest and The Winter's Tale are early-modern fantasies....

 

[Star-child]

2001 is, like many science fiction films , television series books and stories of yesteryear , a now obsolete vision of the future.

It isn't obsolete at all, unless the dates are something that makes your head explode. 20 years from now there may be Soviets and moon landings again.

 

[BAYLOR]

It isn't obsolete at all, unless the dates are something that makes your head explode. 20 years from now there may be Soviets and moon landings again.

The International space station hardly compares to the one in 2001. and we don't currently have moon-bases on the moon. nor do we have Hal 9000 self aware computer or any thing approaching it. nor do we have a manned expedition on it's way to Jupiter. And Bell Telephone company which, Dr Floyd used to Talk to his daughter no longer exists. Then again, Blade Runner had an advertisement for defund company Atari and you' d think we'd at least have flat screen tv by 2017 which weren't in evidence and we don't have replicated androids nor do we have interstellar travel . And then there's Back to the Future . No flying cars , no Mr Fusion ,Max Spielberg never directed a 3d sequel to James nor did he beam a movie director become a movie director Okay , they did have flat screen giant tv and a sort of social media internet , they were not far off on that one. A nd they did have the Cubs winning the World Series, but they were off by one year and , it was the Cleveland Indians who were their American League opponents and not the Miami Gators .

 

[Star-child]

The International space station hardly compares to the one in 2001. and we don't currently have moon-bases on the moon. nor do we have Hal 9000 self aware computer or any thing approaching it. nor do we have a manned expedition on it's way to Jupiter. And Bell Telephone company which, Dr Floyd used to Talk to his daughter no longer exists. Then again, Blade Runner had an advertisement for defund company Atari and you' d think we'd at least have flat screen tv by 2017 which weren't in evidence and we don't have replicated androids nor do we have interstellar travel . And then there's Back to the Future . No flying cars , no Mr Fusion ,Max Spielberg never directed a 3d sequel to James nor did he beam a movie director become a movie director Okay , they did have flat screen giant tv and a sort of social media internet , they were not far off on that one. A nd they did have the Cubs winning the World Series, but they were off by one year and , it was the Cleveland Indians who were their American League opponents and not the Miami Gators .

Okay, you just didn't understand the point I made.

 

[BAYLOR]

If the Iliad is fantasy just because it influenced purpose-written fantasy, than medieval history is just as much "fantasy" for its influence on the genre.

Parzival by Wolfram Von Eschenbach for example?

 

[BAYLOR]

Okay, you just didn't understand the point I made.

With all due respect Yes, I did understand your point. I just don't happen to agree .

 

[BAYLOR]

I'm glad to see the great George MacDonald mentioned here. But he was a follower of Wordsworth and, more to the point, Coleridge, and Coleridge has a good claim to have founded modern fantasy. Read his (unfinished) poem "Christabel." Put it into pulp prose and you'd have something suitable for Weird Tales. Put it into good literary prose and you'd have something better. A medieval setting, an imaginary locale (if not yet an imaginary world), a suggestion of heroism, and a vampirish beauty, etc. -- it's clearly a forerunner. Take Coleridge's poem "Kubla Khan" -- all of Lord Dunsany's fantasy comes out of Kubla's overcoat. As for the "Ancient Mariner" -- here you have the curse, the long journey into remote lands, the supernatural beings... There's also Browning, in his Childe Roland poem -- the knight who came to the "dark tower." But then that reminds us of an old rhyme in Shakespeare's King Lear; and of how his late plays The Tempest and The Winter's Tale are early-modern fantasies....

I have a copy of George MacDonald's novel Phantasies in book my collection .

 

[Extollager]

I have a copy of George MacDonald's novel Phantasies in book my collection .

If you haven't read MacDonald's long fantastic fiction for adults yet, start with Lilith rather than Phantastes (note the spelling), which were reprinted in the Ballantine Adult Fantasy series, as you might know. MacDonald wrote also some stories that, I suppose, could be labeled as "for all ages," such as "Photogen and Nycteris" (The Day Boy and the Night Girl), "The Golden Key," "The Light Princess," etc. They are outstanding. Lin Carter collected several of them in Evenor, and "Photogen and Nycteris" is in his anthology New Worlds for Old. But Lilith isn't a book for children.

 

[BAYLOR]

If you haven't read MacDonald's long fantastic fiction for adults yet, start with Lilith rather than Phantastes (note the spelling), which were reprinted in the Ballantine Adult Fantasy series, as you might know. MacDonald wrote also some stories that, I suppose, could be labeled as "for all ages," such as "Photogen and Nycteris" (The Day Boy and the Night Girl), "The Golden Key," "The Light Princess," etc. They are outstanding. Lin Carter collected several of them in Evenor, and "Photogen and Nycteris" is in his anthology New Worlds for Old. But Lilith isn't a book for children.

Ive read Lilith , terrific book ! I had the Ballantine edition of that book I know of those other stories but have not read them.

 

[BAYLOR]

I found a list of ingredients...

"Quests, dreams, visions, prophesies, journeys...
Knights, squires, peasants...
Wizards, mages, sorcerers, and witches...
Kings, queens, princes...
Hermits, damsels in distress, gatekeepers, crones, fairies, elves...
Dragons, princesses...
Magic swords, shields, armor, spells, books...
The Middle Ages, Middle Earth..."

Fantasy 101

Established by writers well before Tolkien.

 

[BAYLOR]

I would class Swift's Gullivers Travels as fantasy, wasn't that published in the 18th centuary?

Fantasy and one the greatest satires of all time. I wish he had written more then he did.

 

[Teresa Edgerton]

MacDonald wrote many wonderful stories (wonderful in more senses of the word than one) but "Photogen and Nycteris" (her name was Watho and she had a wolf in her mind) is my favorite among his short fiction (although "The Light Princess" is definitely the most fun) and among his books my vote would go to The Princess and Curdie—which I did not like at all the first time I read it, but was totally blown away when I reread it many years later. It seemed too grim and depressing after The Princess and the Goblin and so I was disappointed. Reading it much later, with no expectations, and perhaps having learned enough here and there to have a better understanding of the symbolism and the deeper meanings—also some of the splendid descriptions—I was able to appreciate it for what it was instead of being miffed because of what it wasn't. Really, it is one sequel that is far superior to the original.

(People always talk about Lilith, but after multiple attempts I found that one unreadable.)