Vary's - why?

D

Dolorous Edd

Ever the optimist
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*disclaimer - previous effort got lost after ages typing it up. very angry. :mad: CBA doing it again. This is shorthand version.*



WHY is he such a loyal supporter of the Targaryen's? WHY does he want them to return? And illyrio could also be included in that question as well.




Why do people do anything: Money/power/Loyalty/Strong emotion - love or hate.


And i don't think it's any of those




Money: I expect vary's has got a fair bit stashed away, and with his "little birds" he could easily extort more from people who don't want to have their dirty little secrets revealed. So unless he has a really bad gambling problem, or a serious addiction to expensive prostitutes (unlikely, given his unfortunate situation ), he should have ample finances.




Power: Again, he already has power, and he strikes me as someone who prefers to wield his power covertly. If he's making a play for higher office, say the position of hand (or maybe even of king, if he thinks he could destabilise the region enough to make a move) I would say that would be right out of character for him, it's far too overt.




Loyalty: He's a native of the free cities, why should he feel loyal to the targaryen's?




Strong emotion - Love or Hate: He doesn't strike me as being a very emotional man, to do his job well i would think one would have to be very cold and calculating - sentiment would get in the way. The only time we've ever seen Vary's get REALLY emotional about something was when he discussed his castration, and i can't for the life of me see how a targaryen return to power in westeros would get him revenge on that man.




Finally, one has to consider the chances of the ploy succeeding - Until his death visery's was heir to the throne - a mad, angry, petulant child. He had no hope whatsoever of gaining support for his claim. Yes, Vary's could have planned to kill him/allow his death to put danny in line, but until she found her dragon's her chances were equally remote. Again, Vary's character does not strike me as being someone who would go ahead with a plan he knew would likely fail. He's a spider; he'd slink of into the shadows and wait for a better opportunity.


The same could be said of illyrio - He's a merchant; he's in the business of making money. The targaryen's are an appalling investment.




So, why are vary's (and illyrio) striving so hard to put a targaryen back on the throne?



My answer: Me thinks Rhaegar was not the only one to stumble across a certain prophecy. ;)
 
We know that melisandre came to westeros to search for azhor azhai reborn, an eastern legend. Perhaps vary's and Illyrio belong to some free cities secret society, whose mandate is to await the prince who was promised and assist him?
 
My guess is the secret to his motivation lies outside of Westeros - either in the Free Cities or elsewhere. Obviously, they are yet to be revealed, but my gut tells me that there will be some strong mystical/magaical/religious/prophetic ties to his actions and plans.
 
Dolorous Edd said:
Finally, one has to consider the chances of the ploy succeeding - Until his death visery's was heir to the throne - a mad, angry, petulant child. He had no hope whatsoever of gaining support for his claim. Yes, Vary's could have planned to kill him/allow his death to put danny in line, but until she found her dragon's her chances were equally remote. Again, Vary's character does not strike me as being someone who would go ahead with a plan he knew would likely fail. He's a spider; he'd slink of into the shadows and wait for a better opportunity.
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Let's not forget exactly how Dany came to have her dragons. They were a wedding gift to her from Ilyrio....who most likely received them from Varys. With the Dragon remains located under King's Landing, it is not far fetched to think Varys came to obtain the dragon egss there.

Also, that makes me think back to Arya and when she overheard two gentlemen speaking...I believe they were Varys and Ilyrio (or someone who was definetly from overseas. I believe this conversation Arya overheard took place well before Dany received her eggs.
 
MSBorba said:
Also, that makes me think back to Arya and when she overheard two gentlemen speaking...I believe they were Varys and Ilyrio (or someone who was definetly from overseas. I believe this conversation Arya overheard took place well before Dany received her eggs.
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They were definitely Varys and Ilyrio. GRRM has confirmed this. Now, if only I could remember what they were talking about. Hmmm.... I'm really wishing I brought my copy of AGOT with me. :)
 
red_temple said:
They were definitely Varys and Ilyrio. GRRM has confirmed this. Now, if only I could remember what they were talking about. Hmmm.... I'm really wishing I brought my copy of AGOT with me. :)
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Here I come to save the day again, Red. :)

They were discussing Ned's investigation of Robert's bastards, and the problems between Lannisters and Starks that were sure to follow. They agreed that it was too soon for war. One suggests killing Ned in order to hide the truth and give them more time to plan for Dany's arrival with Khal Drogo's troops. More discussion of the impending war follows, then turns to the discussion of Varys' little birds, who are revealed to be children with their tongues cut out, who apparently die easily.
 
AryaUnderfoot said:
Here I come to save the day again, Red. :)

They were discussing Ned's investigation of Robert's bastards, and the problems between Lannisters and Starks that were sure to follow. They agreed that it was too soon for war. One suggests killing Ned in order to hide the truth and give them more time to plan for Dany's arrival with Khal Drogo's troops. More discussion of the impending war follows, then turns to the discussion of Varys' little birds, who are revealed to be children with their tongues cut out, who apparently die easily.
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Thanks again Arya - you're my hero!!!:)

So then Varys very well could have given the eggs to Ilyrio. If not then, perhaps at an earlier time. Question is - did Varys know that the eggs could hatch live dragons?
 
Maybe I'm being a little too simplistic, but maybe he just thought the Targaryen dynasty was more stable and hence 'better' at running the Seven Kingdoms.

After all, after spending the best part of 20 years watching Robert bankrupt the Kingdom whilst knowing that his 'trueborn heir' wasn't even Robert's child he must have forseen some of what was going to happen to Robert if Cersei found out she was going to be exposed. (As a sidenote, Viserys may have been obnoxious but Joffrey was as bad if not worse).

I think Varys' original plan may have been to firstly highlight to Ned (and ultimately Robert) that his heir was a product of adultery, to force the Lannisters from power - who knows, Robert may have gone to war with them and wiped them out! After this perhaps Robert and his brothers would have had 'an accident' and Varys could have tried to convince Ned to restore the 'stability' of a Targaryen rule. At the very least he could have tried to get Dany married to the new ruler to help 'legitimise' them.

All pure speculation of course :)
 
Dragon eggs seems to be rare and valuable...
So, if Varys/Illyrio gave them to Dany, be sure that their is something selfish going on there.

Call it power, call it whatever you want....

All I say is they have an obscure purpose (Varys/Illyrio) that has not been revealed yet.

Nothing is free...Every action has a meaning....
 
AryaUnderfoot said:
I'm thinking it's either the prophecy, or religious beliefs of some type, or both.
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I'm with AU on this one. I think he gives away some of motivations away when he speaks to Tyrion about black-magic.

Motivation: FEAR OF WHAT MAY COME TO PASS.

Eunichs are traditionally shady characters and it would be just like JRRM to buck the trend and have one fighting for a brighter future.

So many things go back to the Free cities too...Syrio, Jaquen, Illerio, Varys.
 
Duff_Omathum said:
So many things go back to the Free cities too...Syrio, Jaquen, Illerio, Varys.
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Which brings me to something i've wondered for a while - Will the free cities march to the aid of westeros, or will it fight the others alone?
 
Don't free cities respect all gods? Why would they side with or against one? I think Westros will have to go it alone.

The Targaryen line is ancient and dates back to Valyria but the Starks have been around since before the Wall, the first Andal, and long before the first Targaryen set foot on Westros. I think that Westros' future rests on that connection/covenant with the old gods/children/giants/forrests, rather than some foreign power.

Perhaps the free cities see see themselves as keepers of the balance between Rhillor and the Other, and by that logic Varys and Illerio act as they must rather than for good/evil or ice/fire.

On that note, a few hungry dragons may not always be perferable to the others. Neither side seems particulary inclined to being nice to humans.
 
Winters_Sorrow said:
Maybe I'm being a little too simplistic, but maybe he just thought the Targaryen dynasty was more stable and hence 'better' at running the Seven Kingdoms.

After all, after spending the best part of 20 years watching Robert bankrupt the Kingdom whilst knowing that his 'trueborn heir' wasn't even Robert's child he must have forseen some of what was going to happen to Robert if Cersei found out she was going to be exposed. (As a sidenote, Viserys may have been obnoxious but Joffrey was as bad if not worse).

I think Varys' original plan may have been to firstly highlight to Ned (and ultimately Robert) that his heir was a product of adultery, to force the Lannisters from power - who knows, Robert may have gone to war with them and wiped them out! After this perhaps Robert and his brothers would have had 'an accident' and Varys could have tried to convince Ned to restore the 'stability' of a Targaryen rule. At the very least he could have tried to get Dany married to the new ruler to help 'legitimise' them.

All pure speculation of course :)
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Just think- if Robert wasn't so darned pigheaded, what if Varys and Illyrio had simply orchestrated a marriage between Dany and Robert? Or their children? Perhaps he could have been convinced to make that sort of alliance with a Targaryen after realizing what a cow Cersei really is.

Of course, Renly and company wanted to marry Margaery Tyrell to Robert (remember Renly asking Ned if Margaery reminded him of Lyanna?)

So many little schemers running around the kingdom...
 
red_temple said:
Thanks again Arya - you're my hero!!!:)

So then Varys very well could have given the eggs to Ilyrio. If not then, perhaps at an earlier time. Question is - did Varys know that the eggs could hatch live dragons?
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Varys may have given the eggs to Illyrio, but it was not then. Dany marries Drogo in her third PoV, I believe, possibly before Arya is in KL, and definitely before this conversation - I think the conversation itself may even confirm that Dany and Drogo were on their way to see the crones, though can't be positive. But I don't think that's where the eggs came from, anyway. I think it's mentioned they are most likely from the far east, where *magic* still lingers. Again, could be wrong. Arya might like to check that for me. Though she may start charging a finder's fee...

How did Varys come into Aerys's service in the first place? If he saw Aerys as his saviour, one who dragged him from the gutter, from squalor and poverty, into a life he'd never imagined was possible, perhaps it is just a deep-felt sense of gratitude that ties him to the Targaryens. We assume that, due to his position, he has little or no honour, but perhaps he is as honourable as Ned, keeping his word to his sworn master through all these years in the only way he knows how, through stealth and deception...
 
So I have Varys on the mind tonight. Varys, master of whispers and spiders has the very useful ability to change himself to not get detected. Well changing one's clothing is one thing but I think, from what I've read, that Varys could very well be a faceless men. He has changed his voice in many instances, look at Eddard's POV. Also Varys has shown that he can change his smell. I know anyone could do that but this takes the cake. Vary's I believe does infact change his face like the faceless men. When Eddard was in the black cell, Varys paid him a visit and Eddard said that the Varys had change in face to take after a turnkey gaoler.
 
I think with Varys it is more mummer's tricks. Remember he was raised in a travelling troupe in the Free Cities, before being sold to his castrator. He would have learnt the arts of make-up, vocal mimicry and changes in stance and posture to affect characters, as would be required in a mummer's troupe. I don't think the Faceless Man theory flies.
 
I'm with Culhwch, Vary's being a faceless man is a little too much. The question is, how did he go from mummer to Lord of Whispers? Who recommended him to Aery's? I also don't think its just Illyrio on his own pulling some strings in the Free Cities. I can't believe that when the doom fell upon Valyria the Targaryens were the only nobility to survive. There must be some ruling families still left doing something somewhere.
 
Culhwch said:
I think with Varys it is more mummer's tricks. Remember he was raised in a travelling troupe in the Free Cities, before being sold to his castrator. He would have learnt the arts of make-up, vocal mimicry and changes in stance and posture to affect characters, as would be required in a mummer's troupe. I don't think the Faceless Man theory flies.
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That's right. Like to say sorry about that, I had one to many at the local pub and cooked up a pretty wacky idea. :D
 
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