The Dragon Has Three Heads

[The Imp]

Ah, thank you.

I like to think Jon is a Stark at heart, though. Then again, if he has Targ blood might we not worry that both he and Dany will go ape-scat on account of the "mad gene"? Never considered that before. Must re-read Jon for subtle signs of madness...

I'm on my (I think) 4th re0read. I don't remember ever thinking that there might be reason to think Jon might one day become insane, but I've never looked for that. What's really nice about the r+l theory is it transforms Jon's bloodlines from Stark-Tulley to Stark-Targaryen. It doesn't get much more noble than that. It's also a solid unification of the North and South.

 

[Jarmel]

What TK said, and welcome

I don't think that the 3 heads will necessarily mean 3 rulers. The only person that I think Dany would share power with were Drogo and someone who might become her husband. Jon very possibly. This becomes infitiely more like if the R + L = J theory is correct. Other likely candidates for "headship" include Bran and Tyrion. I also wonder what GRRM has in store for Rickon. I think one thing is for certain, he's not going to be dragged along for 3 more books as "window dressing".

AGain, welcome, and keep the posts coming

Thanks for the welcomes everybody. I just started reading the series late last year and finally got caught up(mostly due to me taking breaks between the books as I know it's going to be a long time before I see the 5th). The series has been a fantastic read as I was hunting for excellent fantasy writing and it scratched that itch.

Anyway Dany is going to be a ruler by default(assuming she doesn't die or anything like that) if she takes control. The male rider has to be a ruler as he has to be a king or husband to Dany. The logic behind this is again the dragons are the closest thing a person is going to get in regards to being a symbol from God to rule. King Arthur had his Excalibur, Avalon, and Caliburn. This is pretty much Dany's equivalent in making the public and citizens follow her, not to mention scaring the crap out of the houses and making them fall in line. I doubt Dany is going to disassemble the Kingsguard so it's unlikely that we're going to have something like a Dragonsguard. Is it possible that her husband(the king) not have a dragon? Yes but not likely as what image does that show to the houses when the king isn't a rider but two people, one of whom might not have Targaryen blood, are riders? (Although I did like the idea of a Wolf King(Jon) and Dragon Queen pairing but I doubt that is going to happen. If Jon does get a dragon then I can easily see Ghost being killed off but that kinda negates the whole point about the direwolves.) So I would say atleast the King and Queen are dragon riders. The third person again has to be a female to make up for Dany's inability to have children so she has to be a ruler as well in order to establish a proper line. Dany will have to share power otherwise this all is a waste because as soon as she's dead then the houses will tear themselves apart as they're doing now over the throne. The series is heading towards establishing Westeros as a stable country(which it never was even under Robert's control) without external or internal threats and having a proper line is crucial to this.

In regards to R+L=J, my only problem with this is that it's so obvious that I could see Martin not doing it just for that reason. However that is certainly my opinion not backed up in any facts whatsoever.

 

[No One]

Dang it - must tear myself away from my computer!

Meanwhile, Jarmel - I like the comparison in having a symbol of rule, i.e: dragons, but I wonder...have you read Dany's Dance With Dragons preview chapter? I may ave missed you mentioning them, but just in case, I'll only say that Arthur never had similar problems with Excalibur.

Also - and I may be missing something because I've now heard it said a few times - but why does the third head have to be able to continue the Targaryan line? For a start, Dany could just be the last in her line. And what about Jon? Wouldn't his children have claim as Targs? (I mean if he had children by another mother).

Also also - I too like the idea of Wolf Kings. So does Walder Frey apparently.

And Imp - agreed. Jon's always been the most level-headed of chaps and I never got a sense of anything unhinged about him. Except I wasn't looking for it either.

 

[Eulalia]

I suppose there could be three dragon wargers, in addition to three dragon riders! Now the combinations are multiplied. (darn forget my math)

 

[The Imp]

I suppose there could be three dragon wargers, in addition to three dragon riders! Now the combinations are multiplied. (darn forget my math)

This is a REALLY interesting idea

Dany, Jon and say, Tyrion, ride dragons that have been warged into by say, Arya, Bran and perhaps Rickon in what i predict will be a larger role for him.

 

[Jarmel]

Dang it - must tear myself away from my computer!

Meanwhile, Jarmel - I like the comparison in having a symbol of rule, i.e: dragons, but I wonder...have you read Dany's Dance With Dragons preview chapter? I may ave missed you mentioning them, but just in case, I'll only say that Arthur never had similar problems with Excalibur.

Also - and I may be missing something because I've now heard it said a few times - but why does the third head have to be able to continue the Targaryan line? For a start, Dany could just be the last in her line. And what about Jon? Wouldn't his children have claim as Targs? (I mean if he had children by another mother).

Also also - I too like the idea of Wolf Kings. So does Walder Frey apparently.

And Imp - agreed. Jon's always been the most level-headed of chaps and I never got a sense of anything unhinged about him. Except I wasn't looking for it either.

That's one of the advantages of having a divine inanimate object I guess.

The third head doesn't have to. It's quite possible that she could just be the last in line. However the series is heading towards the country being stable as a whole and having the whole place being in turmoil again after twenty years isn't the most stable of places. Not to mention if she doesn't have a heir or some line set up then chances are a similar fate will fall her as pretty much every king in this series. Yes Jon's children would be Targs(assuming he is a Targ) which is a good reason why if he is a Targ then he is going to be a rider and King. Then there is the whole deal with the mother and how would she fit into things. If Jon is setup as a ruler then as far as I can see, Dany is a third wheel. There is also the possibility that there is Jon and another male Targ however there is a good chance for a power struggle between their children. I'm actually starting to wonder if Dany might get her fertility back if one of the dragons die.

Walder does like his weddings.

I also wouldn't expect much out of Rickon ever as he's just too young unless Martin actually does go the time skip route.

 

[No One]

Jarmel - the key difference here is that I don't believe Dany or Jon or any of three heads will necessarily sit the iron throne come the end of the books. I really have no good reason for thinking that, other than the occasional emphasis in the books of the theme of history repeating itself. Obviously, that can be applied to Targs as well as Baratheons, but I think that the bloodline that started the series will end up back on the throne. There's a lot of candidates for that, even within the Baratheon bloodline, but my money's on Gendry.

As for whatever that would mean for Jon, Dany and the dragons, only god knows. I mean Imp. I mean Martin.

 

[Lofwyr]

What's to even say there still is an Iron Throne at the end of the series? Things could get a mite cataclysmic, leaving a need to remake the entire kingdom.

 

[Eulalia]

There is a dragon throne...isn't there? One for Dany and an Iron Throne for Jon???

Maybe Gendry will reforge the Iron Throne into some swords.

 

[No One]

There is a dragon throne...isn't there? One for Dany and an Iron Throne for Jon???

Maybe Gendry will reforge the Iron Throne into some swords.

Re: Dragon Throne - that threw me for a while, but then I remembered Dragonstone. Is that what you'r referring to? I suppose it was the Targs traditional family home (post-doom anyways).

And I like this idea of the throne becoming a set of swords again. In fact, you'd think one of Aegon's successors would've had at least one sword re-forged from the throne just so he could say something like, "I wield the throne as it wields me."

 

[All Men Must Die]

On the three riders I think are 1. Danny 2. Jon Snow 3. Aegon (from ADWD).
On the whole thing about controlling the dragon it was said they used magic or
the dragon horn, to bind the dragon to the rider.

 

[Boaz]

AMMD, welcome! I'm not sold that the three Targs will all be dragon riders. Dany, sure. But the other two might just be for show.

 

[All Men Must Die]

Thanks Boaz. True about all three riders might not have to be Targs, but I'm not sure how GRRM might play it out. One thing that has me worried is those R'hllor red priests. In the one POV of Merlisandre it sounded like 1. They do have magic powers. 2. She also had a lot of small things for special effects, like powders and other stuff like that. 3. They seem to see visions in the fire. But most importantly they seem to want to influence events by influencing important characters. 3. They can people back from the dead.

Not sure if you have seen that interview GRRM did where he read out loud a part of a chapter from the winds of winter. It had the POV of Victarion Greyjoy. The red priest was telling him about how the horn was use to bind the dragon to the rider.

In all it sounds like the red priests want to use the dragons for the AA prophecies or take them for them selves. IDK.

 

[Tywin]

The Stark warging capability might introduce a new element into the "binding the dragon" issue.

One of the themes that has come up repeatedly is powerful people dismissing the power of the Starks (think Arya warging the cat to catch the Kindly Man, or Janos Slint getting beheaded). This may come into play later as the string-pulling R'hllor priests might get surprised. For instance wouldn't it be fun to see Victarion riding a dragon bound by that horn when Bran wargs into the dragon and frees it from it's binding?

 

[All Men Must Die]

The whole dragon needs three heads is probably not as important as the issues of Danny. She turning into a paranoid person that does not trust people. Since she sees that everyone is going to betray her. The whole thing about she has to go backwards to go forward. South to go north, and east to go west. I don't exactly remember how it all goes. Come on, that just to much. Just go to westeros already.

I know the black dragon is hers but what about the other dragons? Is she going to have a say on who else can be the other dragon riders. Are the dragons just going to pick their riders?

 

[Boaz]

AMMD, half my comments are just for the sake of playing the devil's advocate. Could Dany control all three dragons with The Horn? Maybe... and if so, she would not need other riders. The other two heads would be for political benefit only... and I contend that if Dany is barren, or at least believes she is barren, then one head must be female to be a surrogate mother to continue the Targaryen Dynasty.

Dany's dragons are now large enough to bear riders and they seem not to respond to her will as they did when they were small. Rhaegal and Viserion have not had contact with her in a long time and Drogon tolerated her, but was not influenced by her. So if Dany moves on from Slaver's Bay, how will she get them to follow her? Through control. That means The Horn or through warging abilities.


If the dragons must be ridden into battle, as it appears that Aegon and his sisters always did, then Dany will be forced to choose riders before she moves from Slaver's Bay.

Maybe Dany can use The Horn to force the dragons to follow her, but they won't be used in battle until each has a rider. I think force will continue to harden the dragon's hearts against possession. Dany needs to gain the trust of these beasts soon. I think this all means that Dany will be forced to form the three heads of the Targaryen Dragon before she moves from Slaver's Bay.

If that is so, then Jon, Arya, Sansa, Margaery, Myrcella, Aegon, Gendry, Sam, Thoros, Mel, Davos, Bran, Rickon, and everyone else in and around Westeros is removed from candidacy. Tyrion, Victarion, Penny, Jorah, Barristan, Quaithe, Missandei, Daario, Pono, Jhaqo, Brown Ben, and possibly Edric and Loras are the candidates.

 

[Needle]

An interesting thought that at least one of the other rides needs to be female. I don't really see any true candidates for this except Arya. Sansa or Penny, ridiculous! It would take either of them 10 years to work up the nerve to get within 100 feet of a dragon! Margaery, no way, will never get the chance. Missandei, maybe, possible.

I do not however think they must be found in order for the dragons to stay with Dany. I think Drogon himself will keep them with her. No idea if dragons are members of a pack or not, but Drogon is the biggest and the strongest of the litter. I believe they will go where he goes and he will now stay with Dany.

 

[Liselotte Snow]

I am sure Dany will be one head of the dragon, she already rode Drogon.

For the other heads, I am thinking about Jon, because I believe the theory about him being the son of Lyanna and Rhaegar and because I really hope he and Dany meet somewhere in the next books. The third head, well, I am not sure about the 'new' Targaryan we met in DWD, but I hope Tyrion or Arya will be the third head, just because I like them and the sight of Tyrion on a dragon must be great.

 

[ziebra]

Just a thought, but if R+L=J, then Dany, Jon, and Tyrion would have all killed their mother in childbirth. Not sure if that qualifies them as the heads to the dragon, but it certainly links them.

 

[Brian G Turner]

Just a quick pointer - is it my imagination or did I read something suggesting that Tyrion could be a Targ?

Wasn't it mentioned that one of the Targ kings had spent time in Casterly Rock less than a year before Tyrion was born?

I seem to recall the implication was that Tyrion was a Targ, but I really can't remember if it was something I noted reading, or a discussion on this forum.

If he were, though, the three heads of the dragon would be the three last remaining Targs:

Dany
Jon (assuming R+L)
Tyrion

Aegon as a red herring.

Just thinking out loud here.