The Dragon Has Three Heads

[Boaz]

I believe if Loras is actually not burned horribly and lying on a pallet in Kings Landing, then he is on his way eastward. His instructions are simple, ally with and possibly woo the Queen of Dragons.

Since Loras wears the White, they Tyrells are beyond plotting... this is overt treason.

How will the Tyrells compete with the Martells? The Martells have secretly aided the Targaryens since the Trident. The Martells only bowed the knee after the Tyrells and the whole other six kingdoms did. The Martells planned on marrying their heir to the last Targaryen. The Martells have a young male heir ready to gain her trust, through marriage if need be. The Martells have one of the Baratheon heirs in their control. The Martells have an army aching to spill Lannister blood. The Martells have supplied brides before to the Targaryens.

The Tyrells, on the other hand, can plead ignorance of Dany's plight and perhaps her very existence. The Tyrells have a pretty boy trying to gain Dany's hand. The Tyrells have a large fleet. The Tyrells have the largest army in Westeros. The Tyrells have money. The Tyrells don't have Tommen in hand, but they could seize him at a moment's notice.

I think sending Loras to gain an alliance with Dany is a worse idea than sending Victarion. Loras on horseback will remind Dany of the gallant fool slain by Belwas. He may be every Westerosi maiden's dream, but he'll pale in comparison to Drogo... Victarion likewise. Victarion and Loras are fit to be guards and captains, but not consorts. We don't know Quentyn, but from what Doran's said Quentyn's been groomed to rule. We can't compare him to Drogo either, but I wonder if Quentyn would even try to put on the appearance of a mighty hero. He could be a solid partner and advisor to Dany.

In fact with Olenna closing in on death maybe she feels the pressure of the clock to put one of her brood on the throne. Knowing her progeny arent as shrewd as her this may be a deadline she has imposed on herself.

Is it feasible to compare Olenna to the old time, hard line communists in the Soviet Union and China who've died out? I remember hearing from the seventies through today, "Those guys built all those weapons. They hate us. They'll never go to the grave without using their weapons. They won't leave this earth without trying to achieve their twisted goals." Well, the Soviet empire fell apart without a nuke being fired and China has Hong Kong and Macau back and will find more measures of common ground with Taiwan without invasion.

Or I mayhaps we could compare Olenna to the fanatic Nazis or the Japanese Imperial Army and Navy who all decided to move against their enemies in this life. Their success was short lived.

 

[Aegon the Unworthy]

Well Boaz, you got to admit most of the other principle Tyrells are accounted for. You can't send just anyone to treat with a Queen coming to conquer you. Mace and Olenna are out due to age and infirmity, Willas would be perfect except he's infirm himself and that could be seen as an insult. So its between Garlan and Loras, and if youre like everyone else in Westeros you underestimate the new Queen and send Loras.

I think that point is key, Olenna is likely to underestimate Dany. For that matter, she doesnt know what the Martells are doing. All in all I think you're right, if Loras is out there wooing Dany its a recipe for disaster.

Of course I dont think Loras is out there, I think hes lying in a semi concious state wishing he was dead in the bowels of the Red Keep. He's there and he's going to recover. Thats the only way for his story arc to follow Jaime's.

 

[Boaz]

Agreed. Garlan or Loras.

Agreed. Everyone underestimating Dany.

Agreed. No one knows who else is wooing Dany, but a shrewd player would assume others will try.

I'm uncertain about Loras' story still imitating Jaime's. Perhaps he's been rendered physically incapbable of fighting. Does Loras have an incestuous reltationship with his sister? Will he father a king? Did Loras kill Joffrey or will he kill Tommen? Perhaps part of Jaime's redemption will be to free Loras from his self destructive pattern.

 

[BridgerandObie]

Excuse the ignorance but I am really trying to understand why everyone thinks the Tyrells are out to woo a queen that most smallfolk have never even heard of. They seem to have thrown their only egg into the Lannister basket as they married their only match-worthy female to two consecutive kings. While Dany may yet prove to be forgiving like King Robert, what do the Tyrells have to show for good faith other than marrying Margery to Renly, Joffrey, and now little Tommen, all usurpers in the eyes of Dany. While the Martells have kept distance from the War of the Five Kings and may have bargaining tools, it seems to me the Tyrells will be, in Dany's eyes, on accord with the Lannisters and Baratheons; traitors, traitors, traitors. Surely by the time of her arrival in Westeros Selmy will have filled Dany in a little more about how her family lost their kingdom, and whom was involved.

 

[Boaz]

Wooing Dany or jumping off the Lannister bandwagon is the current fad. The Martells and the Greyjoys are doing it, the Seven only know what Littlefinger and Varys are doing about it, so why not the Tyrells also? I agree that the Tyrells can't possibly show the track record of loyalty to the Targaryens that the Martells, Daynes and Darrys can.

The Tyrells don't know it yet, but they might have hung themselves on their marriages.

 

[Aegon the Unworthy]

B&O, Im not assuming the Tyrells are jumping ship, just kinda postulating if they are going to, they probably already have. However, they have put themselves into a position of power this generation by being pretty shrewd, so I wont put it past them.

Boaz, I kinda assumed Loras was the culprit when it came to Margy and her maidenhead (I feel vaguely dirty typing that). We know she was receiving the moontea from Pycelle (I believe that particular bit but who it was for I dont know), the Bard Cersei had tortured said she (Margy) was never alone except with her ladies or her brother, and the Septa said Margy aint a virgin....we know Renly didnt do the deed (insert ambiguous sexuality reference here)....so I kinda drew the straight comparison from Cersei/Jaime.

I think Jaime and Loras are on similar arcs, Jaime is just about 10 years ahead on the emotional development scale. Not that Jaime is that far along, its just Loras is that far behind.

 

[BridgerandObie]

Wooing Dany or jumping off the Lannister bandwagon is the current fad. The Martells and the Greyjoys are doing it, the Seven only know what Littlefinger and Varys are doing about it, so why not the Tyrells also?

Yes, but I don't understand what the Martells have done to show the Lannisters any kind of love. Yes, they brought a procession to King's Landing, but was that not only Oberyn arriving for a long awaited revenge. Yes, they did promise Trystan to Marcella, but (I may be wrong) they did not leave a ward in her place, so the Martells did nothing but seemingly gain a hostage in the exchange, and Trystan is not even heir to Dorne. It simply seems to me that Doran, as nasty as his appendages may be, may prove to be one of the more subtle and ruthless (in an obscure way) players in the Game of Thrones.

 

[AandKsavetheDAY]

Bran dealing with Jaime.. thats a possibility that I like. My one beef with the Loras going to woo Dany is that I can't see another to be Margaery's fighter. Garlan couldn't go woo Dany, he's married. But the idea of Loras going is interesting... weren't the Tyrells loyal to the Targs during the trident? or am I thinking of a different house?

 

[Boaz]

we know Renly didnt do the deed (insert ambiguous sexuality reference here)

I don't accept Renly's sexuality as abmiguous. We know which way he leaned. Ambidextrous? Possibly.

B&O, okay, saying the Martells were jumping off the Lannister bandwagon assumed that they were on it... which they never were. A better way to put it would be to say that Doran is nearly ready to stop wearing his mask of courtesy, he's almost ready to spill blood.

 

[Nefela]

Hi people, my first post!
I know that many of you think that Jon is L+R son an I agree with that theory. But I don’t think that Jon is one of the “Dragon trio”.
Jon looks like a Stark, he and Ghost have some sort of supernatural connection. He has Ghost so I don’t believe that Martin will “give” him a dragon as well. It seems just a little to much. Stark blood in Jon is much stronger then Targaryens, so I don’t believe we will see him riding a dragon.

 

[TK-421]

But what of that crackpot theory that Loras is indeed not burnt and it was all just a cover to hide his journey across the Narrow Sea to make contact with Dany. I know, Loras is not the best of embassadors, but Mace is no statesman either...

 

[MOUNTAIN THAT READS]

1. I think he is NOT bunt.
2. I don't think he is on his way to woo her, just negotiate.
3. She may be angry with the Tyrell's, but she also need to consider they have placed alot of knives that could kill Usurpers inside the city walls.
4. Assassination is alot cheaper than all out war.
5. Besides she is the one that wants lords to flock to her banner. Who is going to flock if she starts spurning the ones that try.

that's all the numbers I know, so I will wait patently while Wert and Raven take turns telling me I didnt read carefully enough and have already been proven wrong.

 

[the smiling weirwood]

Referring to B&O reminds me of deodorant.


Very interesting thoughts on Loras and all worth consideration. However, I find myself wishing he is lying abed hideously disfigured by burns. It has a certain poetic justice about it. After all, nothing is certain except the demise of the beautiful so I'm sure there is something nasty waiting for Loras.

 

[Tysha]

The Dragon has three heads
1. Dany
2. Jon (Son of Rhaegar and Lyanna)
3. Aegon (Rhaegar's son who is not dead as it is believed) also known as Alleras the Sphinx.
The clues about Aegon: When Dany enters The House of the Undying Ones, one of the prophecy sights was:

The man had her brother’s hair, but he was taller, and his eyes were a dark indigo rather than lilac. “Aegon,” he said to a woman nursing a newborn babe in a great wooden bed. “What better name for a king?”
“Will you make a song for him?” the woman asked.
“He has a song,” the man replied. “He is the prince that was promised, and his is the song of ice and fire.” He looked up when he said it and his eyes met Dany’s, and it seemed as if he saw her standing there beyond the door. “There must be one more,” he said, though whether he was speaking to her or the woman in the bed she could not say. “The dragon has three heads.”​

 

[Aegon the Unworthy]

Heres the confusing part....

Originally Rhaegar thought it must be his son, which must be the PTWP....then circumstances showed him to be wrong. As his son apparently had his brains dashed out....then Aemon concluded to Sam that the texts never said "He" persay.....so it could be Dany. Of course if they never said "He" they also never said "She".

So Aegon could still be Aejon. You know maybe Lyannas promise to Ned was to protect Aejon as his own. Lyanna was the type that when something of this import as the PTWP is made known to her she would react in earnestness. We assume she's at the Tower of Joy when Ned finds her, because thats where the Kings Guard is but they could be there protecting Aejon and Lyanna killed by some of Roberts supporters while defending Rhaegar. But that still doesnt account for the obvious age difference. So Im rambling....

Alleras the Sphinx is Sarella, one of the Sand Snakes (the Vipers children) the name and reported place is too cute a coincidence to be far off.

 

[Tysha]

Originally Rhaegar thought it must be his son, which must be the PTWP....

Whatever Rhaegar thought, what Dany actually saw was a prophecy (about the three heads of the dragon - Rhaegar is "looking" at Dany, thefore she must be one of them; he holds Aegon, so he must be another, and Rhaegar says that "there must be another one"), and not just "a day in Rhaegar's life".

As his son apparently had his brains dashed out...

Have you actually seen Aegon's brains on the wall? All you know is that it was some unlucky baby. Sure, he can be easily identified... with his head crashed... Don't you think Rhaegar (or Elia) could be smart enough to hide their heir away when the war is so near? Even Cersei was bright enough for that (hiding Tommen when the war was near King's Landing).

then Aemon concluded to Sam that the texts never said "He" persay.....so it could be Dany.

Right, but Dany is only one of the dragon heads (though she is the promised one - she is the only pure dragon blood, remember?)

So Aegon could still be Aejon. You know maybe Lyannas promise to Ned was to protect Aejon as his own. Lyanna was the type that when something of this import as the PTWP is made known to her she would react in earnestness. We assume she's at the Tower of Joy when Ned finds her, because thats where the Kings Guard is but they could be there protecting Aejon and Lyanna killed by some of Roberts supporters while defending Rhaegar. But that still doesnt account for the obvious age difference. So Im rambling....

So we agree that Aegon is not Jon. Lyanna had a much more important last wish than defending Aegon - she had her own son to care about.

Alleras the Sphinx is Sarella, one of the Sand Snakes (the Vipers children) the name and reported place is too cute a coincidence to be far off.

Come on, give George R.R. Martin more credit than that! Hiding a twenty-year old woman as a guy? Sure, "Alleras" is "Sarella" spelled backwards, but this only proves that he knows her (and they were probably close, maybe grown together - recall that Sarella is the Viper's daughter, and what a better place to hide a half-dornish boy that looks like Elia than give him to Viper?) So Aegon must have chosen "Alleras" because of that, or a similar reason.

Besides, remember Aemon phrase "the Sphinx it the riddle, not the riddler"? And why do you think the dragonglass candle is burning in the Citadel since the Sphinx got there?

 

[Aegon the Unworthy]

Tysha this is all funny....

I wasnt arguing with you so I dont know why you would dissect my post. I was just airing my confused thoughts. You put none of your reasoning in your earlier post so I was asking for clarification. You dont post bullet statements on this website dammit.

For the record this is the first Ive heard about Sarella/Alleras being Aegon. Thats complex and I kinda enjoyed it.

Regardless Aemon doesnt know anything about Alleras/Sarella. He just couldnt. He was under the impression Aegon was the PWTP when born. It was Aemon who concluded that the prophecy never said anything about a HE, that High Valyrian was fluid when it came to gender and could be referring to Dany. If he knew Aegon was still alive he doesnt leap to Dany being the Princess. I can accept that maybe he concluded Aegon was still alive and in the Vipers care but not that he was originally in the know.

Is there any point in the fight with the Mountain that the Viper just plain forgot to mention Aegon when he mentions Aegons sister (Rhaenys I believe)?

Why cant Sarella be Aegon? Can anyone actually compare the timelines on that one? I cant find any information on how old Sarella might be verus Aegon. Is there a better place to hide a guy than in the midst of a bunch of militant half-crazed women? I think its brilliant.

Lets assume for a second my conjecture is close to being real. That Rhaegars wife handed off Aegon to Oberyn (or a representative) and handed the Mountain (or whomever) one of the Vipers ******* children....then the Viper raises the child amongst his brood. In fact goes on to father more children because he's trying to hide this one.

Aemon sitting in his tower somehow twigs to the fact there is something wrong with Sarella. I dont know how, I dont know who...maybe theres no mother for this one. Maybe the genealogy lists him/her completely different than the others appearance-wise. I dont know. He concludes something isnt right with Sarella but he's on the Wall. Its not until he's sent back to Oldtown for Jon he can possibly talk to Sarella and figure it out for himself.

I really really like this.....

Man Boaz is gonna smack me for posting a wheels within wheels within wheels idea....

 

[Young stormlord]

I am so sorry to tell you but there is a big cockroach in that theory. And here it is: Sarella (Alleras) is black woman (man).

 

[TK-421]

Oberyn would not of mentionned Aegon to the Mountain. He was brash and arrogant but not stupid. Hiding him for this many years would of been blown out of the water.

If Arellas is Aegon, why did Doran forget to mention it to Arianne when he revealed to her his secret plans? Could be for the same reasons as Oberyn but if Arianne does not know, then you can bet that Quentyn would know.

 

[Aegon the Unworthy]

I went and looked things up...Sarella is the daughter of a trader from the Summer Isles. Yup thats true. Captained a ship at the age of 19. But is she as black as coal like others from the summer isle are described? That much we dont know.

I dont know what specifically is up with the Alleras/Sarella thing...but something isnt right. I always dropped the Aemon line that Tysha quoted as being inconsequential but now I cant get it out of my head.

By the way this is not a theory. A theory is an idea supported by proof and impossible to prove false beyond a shadow of a doubt. This is a hypothesis....a connection of seemingly unrelated events held together by the merest skein of an idea.

TK, I meant did he specifically not mention Aegon at any point? A slip if you will....I dont remember him even bringing up his niece and nephew. Just curious.

Im not gonna posit any ideas that Doran did or did not know. I think he is far smarter than any but the big 5 of Westeros plotting....Tywin, Olenna, Varys and Littlefinger. Im confident actually the Sand Snakes did know though. They were far more driven and loyal to each other than any other group. However I do think they would only know Sarella was a man not the actual parentage. You dont think they would get a kick out of hiding that?

If not Sarella then what about Obara. She was manly and decidedly plain. Into the militant arts and all that....still Im stuck on this.