[Spoiler] The Blackfish

[cymric]

I am glad that my theory is meeting with better reactions than on most. On the ASOFAI board I was basicaly told I was stupid and their was no way he could swim all that way with a pregnant woman.

My wife was still swimming quit well till the 9th month of her pregnancy.

 

[Trey Greyjoy]

I think thats an interesting theory! Im going to check out those chapters again!

 

[Boaz]

Okay, twice in ASOS Catelyn thinks to herself that Jeyne's best quality is her child bearing hips... her wide hips. Cat also notices Jeyne's heart shaped face. In AFFC, Jaime sees Jeyne as a willowy girl with narrow hips and a round face. Both descriptions tell of chestnut hair.

If Lady Westerling is deceiving Jaime, then she's playing a dangerous game. The Westerlings got many concessions from the Lannisters for returning to the fold with Robb's queen and without a Stark child.

If Jeyne is false... either the Westerlings sent Jeyne away to hide and bear Robb's heir or Jeyne has gotten away from them and they are hiding the fact from the Lannisters so that minstrels won't have a new song to sing... The Crumbling of the Crag.

 

[cymric]

see it is things like that that make me wonder. Martin is too good a writer to slip up a detail like that with a potentially important character.

Some may say the hardship of losing a husband may make you thinner but not make your hips any thinner am I right!!!!!!


I believe this Blackfish ahs ran of with the Stark Heir and seeks supporters their will be a king in the north.

 

[Culhwch]

The difference in the descriptions is an interesting point, but I can't see Jeyne's mother having let Brynden take her daughter after having worked to keep on the Lannister's side. And if she was taken unwillingly (which I also don't see Brynden doing) it would have been hard to keep a lid on with everyone packed into the under-seige Riverrun. Someone surely would have seen or heard something and saw the potential gain from letting Jaime know. Besides, some of the Freys would have seen Jeyne when Robb stormed the Crag and surely would have twigged to such an obvious imposter.

Maybe the wide to narrow hips difference could be explained by weight loss caused by rationing during the seige?

 

[cymric]

I asked my wife and she said that you would lose fat on your hips but if you had wide hips you would still have wide hips after dieting due to bone struture.

Then she starts on a rant how we should go to the gym.

Why did I marry an exercise science major.

 

[Boaz]

Why did I marry an exercise science major.

Because athletic women are sexy? Just a hunch.

 

[cymric]

yeah forgot about that whole sexiness thing, espicaially when she wakes me up @ 530 in the morning to run with her.


But I have lost 25 pounds so.....

 

[Boaz]

Dacey Mormont was an athlete.... oh well.

Back to the Blackfish...

Edmure and his unborn son stand between Brynden and leadership of the Tullys. If Ed has a son and the Lannisters then kill Ed and the child then dies in infancy, then Brynden is the head of House Tully. Then if the Lannisters are defeated perhaps the Tullys could get Riverrun back from the Freys. Lots of ifs.

Will Emmon Frey keep the towers on his banner? He also had lions if I remember Ser Cleos' arms correctly. As lord of Riverrun perhaps he'll take the Lionfish as his sigil.

 

[Raven]

cymric: oh, I don't think people said you were stupid on the other board: they just thought it was impossible for Jeyne (pregnant or not) to escape in the same way as Brynden did.

Swimming is one thing, but Brynden swam under the river gate, in the pitch dark, at a place where two large rivers meet and the currents are therefore strong and hard to negotiate. He then swam some considerable distance downstream. I don't think Jeyne is ever described in terms that would make me think her capable of that.

 

[Dolorous Edd]

cymric: oh, I don't think people said you were stupid on the other board: they just thought it was impossible for Jeyne (pregnant or not) to escape in the same way as Brynden did.

Swimming is one thing, but Brynden swam under the river gate, in the pitch dark, at a place where two large rivers meet and the currents are therefore strong and hard to negotiate. He then swam some considerable distance downstream. I don't think Jeyne is ever described in terms that would make me think her capable of that.

No, Edmure told jaime that he swam under the river gate to freedom. No one else has confirmed that. If bran and co. hadn't already done it i'd say they were still hiding there, but instead my money would be on their being some secret escape route out of there. As to why her mother would cover for her, she knows how ruthless the lannisters are, she knows they would not risk an heir of robb stark being born. It all comes down to the question of how much does she love her daughter? And would she be willing to stake jeyne's life on the fact that the lannisters wouldn't kill her to kill the child.

 

[Raven]

DE: pretty unlikely, IMO. Any escape route should be discovered by the castle's new owners, anyway, so I guess we'll find out soon enough.

One last objection: finding a suitable 'false Jeyne' would be tricky in a castle under siege. Not impossible, but it adds one more layer of unlikeliness to a theory that can be more parsimoniously (oooh, ain't I fancy today ) explained by George screwing up on a detail.

And while George has few more passionate defenders than I, this is a writer who got Renly's eye colour wrong in the transition from AGOT to ACOK (as well as changing the sex of at least two different horses). But maybe it was a fake Renly.

 

[Boaz]

Maybe they were fake horses.

 

[AryaUnderfoot]

Maybe they were fake hips!

 

[cercar]

Why does brydden and jeane need to go under the river gate. If your inside a castle with full control of the troops and supplies inside it you just need to find a basket, paint it black, tie a lot of rope to it and be slowly lowered down the wall. Once they were down they could have easily gone downstreak or perhaps lowered a rowboat down with them.

 

[cymric]

does anyone have a timeline for the time bettween the red weeding and the scene in AFfc? how many months afterwards?

I was just wondering.

 

[Boaz]

Maybe they were fake hips!

Sure, why not, Bo Jackson has one. Jaime has a fake hand, Cat has a fake life, Ramsay Bolton has a fake claim, Sansa has a fake marriage, Arya has many fake names, Tommen has a fake father, Stannis has the fake baby, and The Sword Of Shanarra is a fake story.

As to the time from the Red Weeding (when Meera marries Jaime it'll be the Red Reed Wedding in the Weeds ) and the escape of brydden and jeane (Brynden and Jeyne)... I don't think that no more than six months have could have passed, but it may be closer to three.

I don't know how far along that moontea or tansy can terminate a pregnancy. (Btw, I don't want Thoros to find anything else floating in the river.) But I suspect that to abort a pregnancy with tansy, the pregnancy could not yet gone to the third trimester. But then again, I'm no doctor.

As for being lowered in a basket... sure it could be done. But the escape through the Lannisters and Freys by a fourteen year old, court raised girl would be highly problematic, imo. Sure the Apostle Paul did it, but he was not being besieged either.

 

[AryaUnderfoot]

(Btw, I don't want Thoros to find anything else floating in the river.)

Okay, I was between laughing and barfing on that one. Boaz, you have a very twisted sense of humor. I suppose I do as well, if I laugh.

As for being lowered in a basket... sure it could be done. But the escape through the Lannisters and Freys by a fourteen year old, court raised girl would be highly problematic, imo. Sure the Apostle Paul did it, but he was not being besieged either.

Agreed. There are many possibilities for how Jeyne Westerling could have escaped (why not a human catapult or a hang-glider?) but most of them aren't really realistic. I'm skeptical that it was an imposter, anyway. It would just be too hard to find someone who looked close enough to her in the midst of a seige. Not to mention, GRRM already pulled that trick with Jeyne Poole and Arya Stark- is he likely to do it again?

 

[Winters_Sorrow]

GRRM already pulled that trick with Jeyne Poole and Arya Stark- is he likely to do it again?

Let's face it though, we all want him too - Robb's fate is screamingly unfair (yeah, so's life but I read to escape crappy reality, know what I mean? ) so the thought that his only offspring being snuffed out, his closest friends and supporters being doomed, his lands & people put to torch & under the care of "pinky leech" Bolton, not to mention the love of his life being dragged away to a miserable life in Lannister hands makes me sad. Actually sad is very polite, but kids may still be about so I'll mind my temper

All, I can say is that the Starks better get some big damn rewards come the end of this series!

 

[Sword of the Morning]

I'm liking the idea that Brydden got Jeyne out. But, here is the problem. I believe Brydden got rid of any needless mouths before the siege really started so finding a stand in Jeyne would be a little hard. The wall isn't going to happen. Totally forgot how Brydden felt when Jaime brought that up. I dont see Brydden hunting and killing Jaime, I kind of feel like Jaime might see the end of the series.