tavern girl rape bit

[the_faery_queen]

this bit bothered me a huge amount, as i have said in other posts, and discussing it with a friend today, i am actualyl coming to the conclusion that this was a mistake on martin's behalf, that this scene was rather beneath him!

this is based on the argument that i have heard, that this scene revealled how women are treated in martin's world.

for me, it is pretty clear how women are seen. cersi, for isntance, not being seen as good as her twinm, just because she's female. being married off, being used for sex and babies. the same with danys, sold by her own brother, basically. the same with arya, for not being allowed to do the boy things that she enjoyed. and when it was discovered she was a girl (while on the road) the wayu that the other men treated her, the jokes they made.

for me, i always had a pretty good idea of the fact that women werne't seen very well in martin's world. that they ar ejust for sex and babies. some of the women are really strong, despite this, and are doing thier best in this sort of world, but it is still clear that they aren't taken seriouslty, that they aren't reallt respected, that they are percieved as tools for babies and little else

so for me, considering the already clear way that women are seen to be nothing, i can't fathom why the rape was neccessary! someone also said to me it was so that ayra could have her first person killed, byut i am sure martin could have come up with a lot of reasons to have a character killed off than for boasting about a gang rape. and the level of detail, the nasty clear images that he went into detail with, it all seemed unneccessary for me.

so i am wondering, what do people think about this scene? does anyone think it added anything? was it just to reveal to people who may have missed the subtlities of how bad women are treated? but with so much other complex stuff going on, why would martin do something so obvious to reveal that? to show the horror of the world? well, that much was already clear from the way people are killed off and treated generally, and what happens to bran, and his older brother (rob? i forget!) that was also a good sign of how the people of the world behave and act. i dont' expect that it shows the world, or that sort of thing happens in history either, because fantasy isn't history. a world of magic and dragons doesn't have to follow this world at all.

so i was just wondering, what do people think? does anyone else think it was unnecessary? does anyone have any good ideas why it was there? so yeah, thoughts?

 

[asdar]

I think it was to show the brutality and rawness of the world.

I want to step carefully because I respect your opinion and position but I think it was important to the story to be violent in the same way that the violence in the story Conan was important.

In today's society violence is just a video game away and doesn't seem real. The outright control and violation of the woman brought the violence home to me in a more real way than hacking off someone's head would. I think, at least for some that it makes the world more real.

That's because given the same situation of lawlessness, such as in a civil war in Africa, our world has the same kind of abuse. I think GRRM is politically motivated and thinks it's important to show the horrors of war in a way that brings it home to readers.

I don't think that he wrote the passages in a smutty kind of way. I think the scenes were meant to bring the horror home to everyone in a way that couldn't be shrugged off as faked.

Personally, I'm with you. I didn't enjoy those passages or think I needed them to see the horror around the kingdoms. Just the same, I think he got the effect he wanted from them and it's his book so I won't complain.

I'm just putting my own opinions down, I've never read anything to that effect or talked or read quotes from GRRM on the topic.

 

[the_faery_queen]

i don't have a probvlem with violence generally, it was the fact it was sexual violence that i think is what annoyed me. i guess, as a woman, i am more biased tho i know a fair few women who don't seem to mind it as much as i do. but i think he showed the violence of the world, and the position of women, in so many other ways, that this scene seemed rather obvious and thats why i see it as somehow beneath him. for such a subtle, sneaky, twisty writer, such an obvious scene just stuck out. and it didn't really show me the horror of war. it showed me the horror of some stupid men, whose general behaviour and theories behind it, were all too real. the guys, she had stopped fighting, she had probably decided that she liked it, is not really teh sort of reaction, or statement, i think men in war would make when raping local women. i dont' think they would give her enough thought to even reason out what she would think or do. and i also think that, because they would have such a low opinion of women, or just be out raping for the fun of it, they wouldn't boast about it either. they would all be doing it, all be abusing women, and wouldn't feel the need to boast, because boasting implies that it was something to be proud of, something out of the ordinary

that is why i dont' really see it as something happening during way. i know that in war men are sometimes turned aginst their own families, will rape their own women, so the fact she was an innocent girl with nothing to do with anything, and not an enemy's woman, makes no difference. but i can't realyl see it as an act of war, because they weren't fighting, they were out drinking. it was clearly not something they had done before, or were doing in the heat of battle, and it didn't seem to be something that others had done, otherwise they wouldn't be boasting about it!

it does show how the world has deteroriated, that they can rape a tavern girl with no fear of being caught, and can then boast about it afterwards, but i just felt there were other ways that cuold be shown without it being so graphic.

but thanks i appreciate your thoughts and i do agree, it brought it home to a fair few people. its just sad that we need a graphic scene like that to make people realise how bad it is. not tha ti am saying you weren't aware of that before, but just generally. because i know that society as a whole, isn't that aware.

 

[Raven]

faery queen: well, I think you need to consider who features in that scene.

It's quite important to establish that Gregor and his men are much worse even than the run-of-the-mill soldiers like Steelshanks, who Jaime notes will indulge in a bit of rape when on campaign as part of the spoils. It's accepted amongst 'ordinary' men that this will happen. The casual brutality that you and asdar mention.

But Gregor and his men are not that kind of man. They're scum (even by Tywin's standards!) and we need to recognise how bad they are. How casually they regard other people's very lives, let alone their feelings, etc.

Plus, the story has to provoke such a visceral reaction in Arya, a child who's seen slaughter and beatings and rape, that she reacts by using one of her three deaths.

 

[Teresa Edgerton]

You're not alone in your reaction, faery queen. The first time I ever heard anyone discussing the Martin series, it was a group of female readers and writers expressing their distaste with the way he used and abused his female characters.

 

[HieroGlyph]

Brawn over Brain.

If Martin had more magic in his 'world' he would need equality. Or he'd bring in sexual bias for magic too.

See, to me, Martin is too popular in 'fantasy'. Theres too little magic. Too much the medieval fuedal society, that 'we' can relate to. This doesnt make ASoIaF good fantasy, to me.

Brawn over brain. Men abusing women. It will stir lots of emotions in rl. Thats the cleverness of Martin. Thats why he hadnt dropped the rape seen, as far as I can see.

I'm here typing about it and I wish that I didnt need to.
He doesnt deserve 200 posts in a fantasy forum. Not if it leads to him getting rich through extra sales, surely!?! (Ok, such opinions are likely to be erased...)

I have bought all of ASIF and have read them and wanted to read more. This doesnt mean that he is 'great'. But it should give us all food for thought. And t.f.q makes a very good point. More important in real life and psychological growth than youngsters realise. Germaine Greer would have a huge amount to say...

 

[Winters_Sorrow]

He doesnt deserve 200 posts in a fantasy forum. Not if it leads to him getting rich through extra sales, surely!?! (Ok, such opinions are likely to be erased...)

I'm not here to edit people's opinions. You think he doesn't deserve 200 posts, that's your opinion & I'm happy to defend your right to say it, whilst disagreeing.

As for there not being enough magic it in, that's what makes it more engaging for me. I grew up with the RA Salvatore/D&D image of fantasy - elves, dragons & fireballs. It's all a little too cliched now for me.
Not much visible magic in LoTR either mind you, is there...?

 

[HieroGlyph]

Yeah, maybe he does actually deserve 200 posts. I had to make one myself here once

But if the fact is that scenes like the tavern girl adhere readers to Martin, then surely we need to pause for thought and analyse this in light of modern society?

It doesnt appear to mean that Martin is at all likely to tread the feminists path. He'll skirt it and infer it. I think he is reflecting on such things and not getting readers to think about why these scenes come about...

How many posts are there likely to be amongst these 200 that allude to such things?

Tolkien has other undeniable qualities. He doesnt need shows of magic either. But does Martin deserve any recognition as similarity to this? Does Martins harsh world of brawn over brain deserve such stirrings?

It depends where Martin takes us with future books. Which paths is he going to lead us down? Will Daenerys show compassion and intellect during and after she dominates Westeros? Or will she just be the the equivalent of her dead brother without the vieny thick parts?

Its some gender struggle. And quite the story. Will I be debating Martin 20 years on in the same way I can discuss Tolkien? I know! Everyone keeps refering to that man... But dont we have a point?

 

[davidnw23]

Hi Faery Queen, I respect your opinion and understand it. Rape is an awful thing with no excuse and that is what Martin shows. He does not sugar coat it, he shows how vile it is instead of just glossing over it. He shows life as it really is wart and all. That's part of his greatness. In addition he is writing in a medevil setting. That's how the world was back then.

 

[AryaUnderfoot]

*Sigh* I'm almost worn out about this topic, but I can't refrain from responding. Perhaps it is simply because Hieroglyph's posts are well-thought-out and actually thought-provoking.

So- I think this actually leads to a bigger question about what sorts of literature can be classified as acceptable when they go beyond societal comfort levels. Is it inappropriate that GRRM wrote a "fantasy" fiction novel depicting graphic, horrific scenes involving rape, murder, dismemberment, torture, etc? These things have obviously been a part of our world in the past, and occur in modern society as well, as much as we like to turn a blind eye. Should these topics only be broached in documentaries and non-fiction, by writers like Elie Wiesel who have actually experienced and witnessed first-hand what human beings are actually capable of? GRRM is making this stuff up only to a certain extent. Should he be silenced or censored because he's depicting a gruesomely realistic world?

Readers are given a certain amount of freedom, at least in some countries, to choose what they will and will not read. Personally, I have found that fiction can educate in ways that non-fiction cannot. Yes, there will be sick people who find a perverse enjoyment in that type of thing. I recall attending a showing of "Schindler's List" with a high school class, and actually hearing some people laugh when a boy was shot. Does that mean that the movie never should have been made? Or maybe they could have toned it down, made it more user-friendly.

Rape happens every day, all over the world. Many of those rapes are not reported, and justice is not sought. If we skirt the issue it won't help at all.

 

[Adasunshine]

*
Readers are given a certain amount of freedom, at least in some countries, to choose what they will and will not read. Personally, I have found that fiction can educate in ways that non-fiction cannot. Yes, there will be sick people who find a perverse enjoyment in that type of thing. I recall attending a showing of "Schindler's List" with a high school class, and actually hearing some people laugh when a boy was shot. Does that mean that the movie never should have been made? Or maybe they could have toned it down, made it more user-friendly.

Rape happens every day, all over the world. Many of those rapes are not reported, and justice is not sought. If we skirt the issue it won't help at all.

So very well put AU!

I am of a similar opinion and if I disagreed with something in a book that much I would ask myself whether or not I should continue reading it. If I am against it then I simply stop reading, it's an interesting discussion but a little out of place. When you read books such as ASoIaF, you have to understand the whole situation, the world it's played out in, the culture of the times, the differing opinions to those of modern ways and lives, it's part and parcel of reading fantasy books.

The scene itself is a little distressing but it was in context and I, personally, had nothing against it being in the books.

Just my tuppence! Just wish I could articulate myself better!

xx

 

[HieroGlyph]

How many books are planned for this ASoIaF? Guess I aught to do some research

Well, what I'd like to say is that I hope Martin writes loads of books like this series, and I mean loads and loads. He wont bore me. He might bore a lot of popularists around here (no naming names!). But he can allow readers to really explore humans with this kind of stuff, yeah?

And that I fully endorse.

So I am not trying to cover anything up, folks.

Tell it as it is. Tell it as it has been. Everyone laps it up for such gruesome reality.

But will it stop and make readers THINK?

A very tough question to answer, I believe.

See, I am not dissagreeing with any of your recent replies. They are all valid.

The thing is these kinds of posts do get heated and end up getting closed.

We cant keep a level head over such things, can we?
Brawn 'kicks' in: and women are not afraid to show it these days.

So is masculinity dead, now? Are we defunct? I think we are if we cling to our muscles as actually meaning something. Then there will be the women out there saying, 'Give me a 'man', not a puddie-cat.' And so the debate goes on...

(Still I would really like to hear what Greer would say.)

 

[Shoegaze99]

Theres too little magic. Too much the medieval fuedal society, that 'we' can relate to. This doesnt make ASoIaF good fantasy, to me.

That's a rather narrow view of a term as broad, sweeping and open-ended as "fantasy," don't you think?

 

[HieroGlyph]

Depends on how narrow you wish to make the term 'magic'!

 

[the smiling weirwood]

back to what Raven said, I think the whole scene was mostly for Arya's developement. it was around this time she started to kill people and really diverge from the person she had been and start becoming this faceless assassin warrior princess kind of person.

 

[HieroGlyph]

a.f.q has not been too active of late, I dont think. Maybe she is busy writing

Anyway, twas I who resurrected this thread. A thread that doesnt necessarily require leaving to rest. Nor does it, imo, need a debate about justification within the context of the book.

A reason why I posted down here was so that I wouldnt make another thread and yet try to talk sensibly about the point of this particular scene and many others alluded to (elsewhere, and as AryaUnderfoot is tired of...).

There is more to including this scene than just as counterpoint to Arya's behaviour, though, I think.

Ok, so Martin could justify the rape. In context. A show of utter brutality. Depravity. All too human behaviour (alongside thoughtful intent, that is). Gore and graphic, I can handle. But where does that lead us beyond Arya as witness?

I still have to say this is pandering to some element of our fascination with awful human behaviour... Is that what you wish in fantasy? Plenty of this stuff in general-fiction, I should think. And once again a reference to the cleverness of Martin.

So how much could we, in all honesty, strip away from these books and move the resultant binder to the general fiction 'section'? Change the geology a little. Rectify those vowels in many a name. And what are you left with? In honesty, please!

Yes, I'm here to flame, since you mostly love the stuff. I enjoyed the books, but I'm not falling in love with them...

 

[rudycrab]

I do not think any pandering is going on. Our society does have a morbid fascination with true crime stories and serial killers but this scene takes up one page of a rather large book. I doubt George planned on making this scene so graphic to raise sales. Some people are drawn to these books because they portray a gritty version of fantasy which is hard to find. I don't think that fantasy is some holy realm of fiction into which the brutality of the real world should not enter. Its not the job of the writer to force readers to THINK. It is something readers should do on their own. There are many thought provoking parts of these books and the rape scene is one. Tolkien is a great writer but if fifty years from now he is still the fantasy writer you are debating I think you didn't give other writers a chance.

 

[Teresa Edgerton]

Yes, I'm here to flame, since you mostly love the stuff.

But we don't do flame wars here, HieroGlyph.

 

[AryaUnderfoot]

I still have to say this is pandering to some element of our fascination with awful human behaviour... Is that what you wish in fantasy? Plenty of this stuff in general-fiction, I should think. And once again a reference to the cleverness of Martin.

Yes, actually, that is what I wish in fantasy. I wish for it to be somewhat believable, tangible, something I can really chew on. I have a very vivid imagination, but as I've grown older and read other books that are for an older audience, I have to say that I find most other Fantasy writers to be boring. I will revisit some of the better ones from time to time, but most of it just fluff and feel-good nonsense. Or, in the case of Jordan, it's a decent idea that bit the dust.
You can't discuss most other Fantasy writers because they spoon-feed you the entire plot and all the characters. Yes, it's all very magical, but can you relate in any way to the characters? In most cases, no. I read a good many Fantasy books while I was growing up, and for the most part the characters were cookie-cutter images of superheroes in different clothing. With GRRM, it's different. Witnessing what Arya witnesses helps us to understand who she is and who she will become. That she used one of her death-wishes on someone who had raped that girl shows us that despite Arya's young age and her wild tendencies, she is a Stark. She believes in justice. It also shows that to some degree she is still capable of compassion, although she has been through hell and back. These things may seem trivial or superfluous right now, but some of these judgements are better saved until you have taken in the whole story. (Although it seems to me that perhaps you, Hieroglyph, will be disappointed no matter what because GRRM's idea of Fantasy does not evenly match your own .)

 

[Teresa Edgerton]

I have a very vivid imagination, but as I've grown older and read other books that are for an older audience, I have to say that I find most other Fantasy writers to be boring. I will revisit some of the better ones from time to time, but most of it just fluff and feel-good nonsense.

I do wish that people wouldn't equate their taste for more sensational fiction with their growing maturity -- because that implies that those of us who are still capable of being shocked and appalled by all the horrors that go on in the world are less mature. Have you considered that it may just be that we imagine them far more vividly and empathize more deeply with the characters involved?

At the age of fifty-six, I've worked very hard at NOT becoming cynical and jaded. Now, the majority seem to give up that battle before they're even out of their teens -- they don't even wait to wear out their idealism by middle age; they just throw it out before they've had a chance to do anything with it.

I'm not afraid that the popularity of writers like Martin and Goodkind and J. V. Jones will produce a generation of rapists and sadists, but I do think that they are contributing to an atmosphere where rape and violence are taken for granted, and the kind of fatalism where people shrug their shoulders and say, "Well, that's the way the world is. Some things will never change," rather than being fired with indignation and a determination to do something about it.


I also wish that people wouldn't equate using a rape scene for passing dramatic effect (and its tangential influence on another character) with actually exploring or offering enlightenment on the issue. It's not the same thing at all. Nor is reading about these things for entertainment the same thing as facing up to them in the real world.