tavern girl rape bit

[rudycrab]

I don't agree that the popularity of writers who write about rape will case it to be taken for granted. My idealism makes me think that the more people who learn about how common place rape is, the more people ther are who will work to stop it. Its much more healthy to bring these topics into public debate than to ignore them and pretend it doesn't happen. In past generations woman were even less likely to admit to being raped because they felt guilty and people generally felt that husbands raping their wives didn't count. The fact that so many outlets brought the subject to light helped change or improve those conditions and mabye fantasy has been safe from reality for ttoo long.

 

[AryaUnderfoot]

I do wish that people wouldn't equate their taste for more sensational fiction with their growing maturity -- because that implies that those of us who are still capable of being shocked and appalled by all the horrors that go on in the world are less mature. Have you considered that it may just be that we imagine them far more vividly and empathize more deeply with the characters involved?

Dear Kelpie, I believe you may be reading too much into what I wrote. If I gave offense, I apologize. However, I don't recall writing that I wasn't shocked and appalled by the horrors that go on in the world, nor did I say that those who are sensitive to such things are immature. Perhaps I should have stated more clearly that after reading other types of literature, better-written literature, than the majority of the Fantasy I read when I was younger, books like "The Dragonriders of Pern" simply didn't quite do it for me anymore.

In the defense of teenagers, I'd have to say that cynicism and jadedness are part of being a teenager and feeling out of place in the world. I don't think that today's youth are any more cynical or jaded than, say, my parents were when they were teenagers in the 60's. Jon Snow and Gendry are, to me, perfect examples of teenagers- they're awkward, surly, very sensitive, and very unsure of where to tread next.

I also wish that people wouldn't equate using a rape scene for passing dramatic effect (and its tangential influence on another character) with actually exploring or offering enlightenment on the issue. It's not the same thing at all. Nor is reading about these things for entertainment the same thing as facing up to them in the real world.

No, being raped or witnessing a rape and reading about those things are certainly two completely different experiences. (Unless you're reading about reading, that holds true with pretty much EVERYTHING.) Many people live such sheltered lives that they (thank God) will never experience such a thing. However, as I said before- fiction can sometimes address an audience that non-fiction would never reach. While you may be the type to head to your local library and read a book about rape and it's psychological effect on victims, most people would not think to do so, and would not even encounter the topic unless coming across it in a fictional book. To GRRM's credit, he does not make it tacky or appealing in any way. It obviously wasn't the main focus of his storyline, but he wrote the scene in a way that made it uncomfortable and distressing to read. I think the way he did it was justifiable.

 

[Teresa Edgerton]

Its much more healthy to bring these topics into public debate.

Which is what we are doing -- yet it's not the fans of these books who initiate the debates.

And when someone does bring up that particular scene (as happens from time to time in one thread or another) the response of most of the Martin fans is, "That scene didn't bother me." Not to mention all the Terry Goodkind fans who think his books are romantic -- or who dismiss the mistreatment of his female characters because his male characters get tortured, too.

Are these the people you think are going to be galvanized into positive action?

If more of the fans were to say, "Yes, that scene sickened me. It bothered me so much that I had to put the book aside for a time," then I might believe that the scene actually had what they used to call "redeeming social importance." Instead, we get how it was necessary to the plot and the world, and how it was important for the development of Arya's character. Which sounds to me like the majority of the people who read that scene see it not as something horrible and painful to read, but as a mere plot device to get Arya moving -- and they'd rather not talk about it anyway, because what they really want to discuss is who Jon Snow's real parents might be.

All of which only adds to my impression that rape is, indeed, being trivialized in the minds of many readers.

edit -- because Arya posted her message while I was composing mine.

I was a teenager in the '60's, and I can tell you that the attitude was very different then. Yes, we were sullen and full of angst and all of that other teenage stuff, but it created a desire to go out and change the world, not to accept it as too bad to fix. Which going by things that the younger members on this board say all the time, does seem to me to be the prevailing mindset.

 

[Adasunshine]

All of which only adds to my impression that rape is, indeed, being trivialized in the minds of many readers.

I don't mean to get all serious but I don't see how you can make that assumption from people's opinion on a book!

I do not think that rape is trivialised in anyone's mind, it is a heinous crime and should be taken seriously at all times. Just because I didn't put the book aside to think about how distressing the scene was, that doesn't mean for one second that I've automatically managed to trivialise rape.

This statement has actually annoyed me so very much, it's a generalisation no-one deserves and I do not have the rationality to push my point further without it getting into a full scale debate, it is merely a very unfair statement and you have wrongly accused a lot of people by saying it.

xx

 

[AryaUnderfoot]

and they'd rather not talk about it anyway, because what they really want to discuss is who Jon Snow's real parents might be.

All of which only adds to my impression that rape is, indeed, being trivialized in the minds of many readers.

Hmmm... So far there are ten readers- some of them indeed fans, who have taken the time to discuss this very thing. And this is just one thread in which it is mentioned. Just because the general reaction is not one of outrage doesn't mean that the scene didn't reach anyone.

 

[rudycrab]

I don't really get that impression that rape is trivialized. I get the impression from most people that that scene freaked them out and mabye some of them only react enough to think that the Mountain is not a very nice guy, but I am sure plenty of people took some time to think about it. Its not the scene's fault readers don't pause and apply it to their lives and society. My point is scenes like this, as well as the commoness of rape in all of these books, should spark people to think. People think "Rape is so common in these books it makes it easier to accept" but perhaps people need to be knocked over the head in fantasy before they question the real world.

 

[the smiling weirwood]

I was indeed touched by this scene, and personally not just as a general observer and yes I felt there should be something done about rape in general but in the world created by GRRM those kinds of things are commonplace and I think it says spades about Arya's character that she did do something about it

 

[Teresa Edgerton]

And this is just one thread in which it is mentioned.

I already said that, and in every instance that I am aware of, the reaction has been the same.

But prove me wrong, Arya and all you other Martin fans. Rather than defending or dismissing the scene, why not tell how it moved you profoundly and changed your thinking.

 

[Adasunshine]

Quote from Kelpie

But prove me wrong, Arya and all you other Martin fans. Rather than defending or dismissing the scene, why not tell how it moved you profoundly and changed your thinking.

I'm sorry but why should we?

I know it's a childish response but it's a very demanding request and something I don't feel I owe you or anyone else.

xx

 

[the smiling weirwood]

It felt to me it was one more blow to what was left of Arya's innocence and for me that was something personal I could relate to.

 

[Teresa Edgerton]

Just because I didn't put the book aside to think about how distressing the scene was, that doesn't mean for one second that I've automatically managed to trivialise rape.
xx

It does, however, contradict Arya's theory that reading the scene might make people think, which is what I was responding to.

And I don't see how it is in the least unfair for me to conclude that people who have specifically stated that the scene didn't bother them at all did not take the subject matter seriously. If you aren't one of them, there is no reason for you to take my remarks personally.

 

[Teresa Edgerton]

I know it's a childish response but it's a very demanding request and something I don't feel I owe you or anyone else.

xx

No you don't. But if you are going to accuse me of making unwarrented conclusions based on what has already been said, it might be useful to provide other information that might modify those conclusions.

If you have such information and you're withholding it, I don't see how I can be blamed for not taking it into account.

However, I think we're all getting far too defensive of our own opinions, and as I said myself a while back that we don't do flame-wars here, I shall now withdraw myself from the discussion.

 

[sawtooth]

But we don't do flame wars here, HieroGlyph.

I agree whole heartedly with Adasunshine. There are so many grandiose generalizations in the posts on this thread, I don't think I could list them all. Moreover, to summarily categorize all of Martin readers or males into one school of thought or another is indeed prejudicial and unsavory (not to mention frustrating and off-putting). Moreover, no one on this list is promoting rape as a positive life-style choice or demonstrating insensitivity about the topic.

Enough grandstanding. What I have surmised from everyone's writing is:

(1) Rape is a serious crime.
(2) Writing about rape in a work of fiction doesn't increase it's occurrence in the real world.
(3) Writing about rape in a work of fiction may desensitize the reader to the act or it may increase empathy for victims of rape (and other violent criminal acts). The jury is out on this one folks.
(4) Writing about rape (and other social ills) affords us the opportunity as concerned human beings to discuss these important issues openly and frankly. (I didn't think that I heard anyone promote censorship above and beyond personal choice).
(5) The scene that started this original thread was not done gratuitously or seductively. The rape scene in the tavern was recognized by many readers for it's importance in the development of Ayra and that it reveals the savage and asocial tendencies of several unsavory characters in a unsettling time (during war).

Did I miss anything? Am I being insensitive or immature? Or have you already prejudged me?

 

[Adasunshine]

It does, however, contradict Arya's theory that reading the scene might make people think, which is what I was responding to.

All I was saying is that just because I didn't put aside the book and think about the scene, it doesn't mean that I trivialised it or rape or didn't think about it atall. The scene has quite obviously made many people stop and think at some point, just because I didn't do it there and then doesn't make me any worse than anyone else.

No, flame wars don't seem to be the thing here and that's why I enjoy this forum so much, it is a place where people can get their views across without getting into arguments but your comment about everyone trivialising rape just got to me because it wasn't just me you were accusing, it was everyone on this forum and that's just not fair and I understand that people can speak for themselves but the comment you made really enraged me and I felt like I had to say something. You unfairly judged all of us and without reason to, it's just not nice.

xx

 

[rudycrab]

Kelpie, I really am sorry if you are removing yourself from this debate becasue I have enjoyed your posts and find them thought provoking. I agree that the idea that the rape by the Mountain only serves to further Ayra's development can be seen as trivializing rape, but I think the tavern girl rape scene is just part of the picture. Rape is common in these stories and in the real world. Someone mentioned early in this thread that Steelshanks(?) was said to indulge in rape as much as any other solider. I mean to me it seems that GRRM could not have been more clear in wanting his readers to think about the high rate of rape in war. I only mean to imply that it is not by necessity a flaw in writing or a gimmick to include graphic rape in a fantasy novel ( which many people on this thread seem to think it is). When people commented on the rape being used to show how bad the Mountain was or further Ayra, they were not saying that it didn't effect them but that it had a legit place in the novel.

 

[napthali]

Hi..tfq

Hmm..honestly..I don't even remember the rape scene you are speaking about..I have to go back and read when I have a sec. There are a couple of female fantasy writers who, as much as I love their stories, I make it a point to avoid. Their rape scenes were very disturbing and I refuse to expose myself to any more.

I actually find GRRM to be pretty sympathetic in his portrayal of the female role in that world. The manner in which Cersei is treated (as a woman) and how trapped she feels to be a woman is the only thing that makes her character vaguely sympathetic. I thought this last book was almost a feminist statement In FFC it appears the women are making the segue from been mere pawns on the board to been high stakes players :thumbsup:

 

[direghost]

I had forgotten entirely about this scene as well, to be honest. How is it any worse than any of the killing, brutality, and other monstrous acts of inhuman savageness? It doesn't seem to me that this scene was anything other than another piece that adds to the overall picture of both war is hell and hell is other people. There aren't too many nice people in Westeros (still alive anyway) and one of the draws to this series is that the evil people do really evil things, instead of just have everyone talk about how evil they are.

 

[red_temple]

Sorry if I'm beating a dead aurochs here, but I feel compelled to add my $.02, and say that I very much agree with direghost.

If one takes exception to rape, then why not murder? Why not torture? Why not kidnapping? Why not the wholesale slaughter of battle? I, like a lot of you, read a lot of books - fantasy, sci-fi, literary fiction, general fiction, romance (yes - even romance), non-fiction, and there are a lot of heinous things that happen in all of these books. Lots of murders, beatings, rapes, abductions, tortures, and wholesale slaughters. Some of them are implied, some are explicitly described, and the rest fall somewhere in between. And the authors that write these scenes - some are literary giants, others are schlock-churning hacks, and the rest are somewhere in between.

Brutality in writing (or writing in general, for that matter) affects us all differently. In fact, I surprise myself in how little I react to a particularly graphic scene, and how much I can bristle at something implied. It just depends on the content, context, and my hot buttons. I do not, however, expect everyone else to react/think the same as I do, nor do I judge them or the author or the world when they don't.

 

[AryaUnderfoot]

Ah, Red Temple, I miss you when you're gone.

 

[Brian G Turner]

Just a quick reminder that it's best to focus on the posts, not the posters.

The issue is actually a very important one for literature in general - I'm tempted to separate this into the Book Discussion board.