Foreshadowing in ASOIAF

I was thinking today that the primary religion of The Seven Kingdoms is the worship of The Seven... the Father, the Mother, the Maid, the Warrior, the Crone, the Smith, and the Stranger. Do these aspects of the god of the Faith mirror the aspects of the seven kingdoms that comprise a unified Westeros?

IIRC, the kingdoms are Dorne, The Reach (the rich fertile lands south of God's Eye and north of Dorne), the Westerlands, the Riverlands (it seems to me that the Iron Islands were traditionally tied to the Riverlands), The Vale, the Coastlands (the Storm Coast and east coast of Westeros), and the North.

Even though Ned held to the old gods, he and his companions were seven in number when they went to the Tower of Joy.

I don't know exactly what I'm saying here, but perhaps a fellowship of seven will also undertake a quest to save a lady. Dany? Sansa? Margaery? And will those seven represent each of the kingdoms and each of the aspects of the Faith?
 
red_temple said:
I think they may already be feeling some wrath with Lady Stoneheart running around and stringing up anything that even smells like a Frey.
Click to expand...

Ew, what does a Frey smell like?


Dirty old man...?
 
The question of Jon's father, forshadowing, and sons continuing in the sins/actions/alliances of ther fathers popped into my head today.

Eddard raised his banner in rebellion and marched south. He lost his honor by fathering a ******* while on campaign.

Robb raised his banner in rebellion and marched south. He lost his honor by sleeping with a virgin while on campaign. So as not to commit the sin of his father, Robb married the girl.

Rhaegar read something in a book that changed his life. Aemon was familiar with the same material. Rhaegar became even more serious. He secretly took a Stark girl to his bed.

Jon has been given certain books by Aemon. Jon will soon understand these passages. Jon is already serious. When Jon thinks of Ygritte, he often compares her to Arya.
 
If Rhaegar had indeed bedded Lyanna, then Jon would be his.....and Eddard wouldn't have fathered a *******. Only a lie to keep Jon safe.

Which in turn got Robb killed.

Sins of the father indeed...
 
I think the best instance of foreshadowing is Dany's vision in the House of the Undying of Qarth. She sees Sansa in the Eyrie, Jon on the Wall, and the War of the Five Kings, though she doesn't recognize any of it.
 
15 days short of 2 years. Nice thread resurrection.

Arya's realtionship to her wolf is very interesting. She has to force her wolf away, just as she has to force her identity away if she wishes to become a Faceless Person (yeah I changed the pronoun there, but she's not a Man y'know.) Driving away her identity has proven just as difficult as driving away Nymeria. Does Arya's inability to completely sever herself from her history actually benefit the agenda of the Faceless Men (thereby explaning the old man's willingness to keep her on despite her shortcomings?) What to make of the fact that her wolf is apparently the she-devil leading the pack of wolves terrorizing the Riverlands? An assassin is supposed to be a lone wolf, not a leader of a pack. In the course of her career as a Faceless Person does Arya unwittingly gain a following of supporters? What to make of the dream she has the night she goes blind? Is there a reason why this post is mostly questions? (Answer-Yes, because I don't yet see any of the answers.)
 
Let's resurrect the thread again.

I was just rereading AGOT and Jon's first chapter. There is a significant amount of foreshadowing in this chapter. I wish to refer to two exchanges:

1) Jon and Benjen:
Uncle Benjen studied his face carefully. "The Wall is a hard place for a boy, Jon."
"I am almost a man grown," Jon protested. "I will turn fifteen on my next name day, and Maester Luwin says bastards grow up faster than other children."
"That's true enough," Benjen said with a downward twist of his mouth. He took Jon's cup from the table, filled it fresh from a nearby pitcher, and drank down a long swallow.
"Daeren Targaryen was only fourteen when he conquered Dorne," Jon said. The Young Dragon was one of his heroes.
"A conquest that lasted a summer," his uncle pointed out. "Your Boy King lost ten thousand men taking the place, and another fifty trying to hold it. Someone should have told him that war isn't a game." He took another sip of wine. "Alsom" he said, wiping his mouth, "Daeren Targaryen was only eighteen when he died. Or have you forgotten that part?"
"I forget nothing," Jon boasted. The wine was making him bold. He tried to sit very straight, to make himself seem taller. "I want to serve in the Night's Watch, Uncle."

Could Jon's life emulate that of his hero?

2) Jon and Tyrion:
"Let me give you some counsel, *******," Lannister said. "Never forget what you are, for surely the world will not. Make it your strength. Then it can never be your weakness. Armor yourself in it, and it will never be used to hurt you."
Jon was in no mood for anyone's counsel. "What do you know about being a *******?"
"All dwarfs are bastards in their father's eyes."
"You are your mother's trueborn son of Lannister."
"Am I?" the dwarf replied, sardonic. "Do tell my lord father. My mother dies birthing me, and he's never been sure."
"I don't even know who my mother was," Jon said.
"Some woman, no doubt. Most of them are." He favored Jon with a rueful grin. "Remember this, boy. All dwarfs may be bastards, yet not all bastards need be dwarfs." And with that he turned and sauntered back into the feast, whistling a tune. When he opened the door, the light from within threw his shadow clear across the yard, and for a moment Tyrion Lannister stood tall as a king.

Three things here:
-The advice to Jon and he making the fact he is a ******* his strength. To a certain extent, Jon already does this to become Lord Commander. But what of the line that not all bastards need be dwarfs. A hint of R+L=J?
-The line about Tywin not being so sure Tyrion was really his son. I know Boaz will latch onto this.
-The length of Tyrion's shadow a reference of his time as Hand or things to come as one of the Heads of the Dragon?
 
TK, for some reason I've not been able to access the Martin page on the Chronicles Netowork for the last four days.

Regarding Jon and Benjen's conversation, I feel that Jon was compared to the Young Dragon. But Jon was not given command too early. He was counseled and he experienced war as a grunt first. Maester Aemon, The Old Bear, Ygritte, Sam, Donal Noye, Qhorin, and others all give Jon sage counsel and build upon the education that Eddard, Rodrik and Luwin gave him. Jon may die young, but it won't be in a foolhardy adventure to the North. No, he'll hold the Wall... no need to go looking for adventure. The Other will come to him.

The person to compare against Daeron Targaryen is Robb Stark. The Young Dragon and the Young Wolf.

Both were proclaimed kings in their teens.

Both marched south.

Neither had battlefield experience before becoming generals.

Both developed a taste for southern women.

Both were victorious on the battlefield.

Both were murdered in castles where they sought to spend the night.

As for Tyrion, I love his line about his father questioning his mother's fidelity. As the son of the richest, most powerful, and most capable lord of the realm, Tyrion has grown up as a *******. Amazing.

Now compare these two conversations. Compare the speakers... First, we have Benjen Stark and his nephew, Jon Snow. In the second, we have Tyrion Lannister and Jon Snow. Compare the gist of the interaction... Benjen gives Jon a history lesson while Tyrion gives him a life lesson.

Why would Tyrion Lannister go out of his way to assist Jon Snow? Isn't it strange that he gives better counsel than Jon's own uncle?

Is it Tyrion's inner character (to quote tsw, above) that makes him seem regal? Or is there something in his future? Or his past?

You all know I love the Tyraen Targaryen concept. What if Tyrion really is Aerys' *******? Then we should not be surprised that his shadow appears kingly. Nor should we be surprised when Maester Aemon Targaryen calls him a giant.

Just as the Benjen-Jon conversation regarding the Young Dragon turned out differently than originally portrayed, what about the second conversation. What if Jon turns out not to be a *******? What if he finds out that he is a trueborn son? What if Tyrion finds out that he really is a *******?

Most of us think that R+L=J. Now combine this with Tyraen Targaryen... this would mean that Benjen is not Jon's uncle by Eddard (as we all suspect) but by Lyanna. On the other hand it means that now Tyrion is Jon's uncle as well. This might better explain the value of his advice. Of course, neither Tyrion nor Jon suspect their hidden Targaryen heritage... but I think that in Westeros that blood calls to blood. Somehow hidden blood calls to hidden blood. Somehow strangers come together.

For instance, Aemon calls Tyrion a giant. Bella offers to ring Gendry's bell. Aemon tells Jon his life story. It would better explain Jon and Tyrion's friendship.

Once again I don't have any hard evidence of Tyraen Targaryen, just a feeling.

Did I latch onto stuff enough for you, TK?
 
You latch as good as any leech and I mean that in a good way.

Now Tyrion may only have been speaking figuratively by saying that the way his father has treated him his whole life, it was as if he was a *******. But Tyrion has convinced himself he is a Lannister through and through. He constently reminds people of this (like when he meets Illyrio). Never once do I recall a moment in the series where Tyrion questions his heritage except for this one and this one depends on how you read it.

GRRM is brilliant.
 
Well, I've declared myself firmly on the fence on this whole Tyrion is really Aerys' ******* theory.

But I just saw these two conversations extremely important for two major characters: Jon and Tyrion.

And get a load of this: the chapter describes Jon's reaction when he first sees Jaime and Tyrion walking into the Great Hall of Winterfell in the royal procession. It is also when we get our first physical descriptions of both brothers.

His reaction towards Jaime was: "Jon found it hard to look away from him. This is what a king should look like, he thought to himself as the man passed."

This is the description that follows of Tyrion:
"Then he saw the other one, waddling along half-hidden by his brother's side. Tyrion Lannister, the youngest of Lord Tywin's brood and by far the ugliest. All that the gods had given to Cersei and Jaime, they had denied Tyrion. He was a dwarf, half his brother's height, struggling to keep pace on stunted legs. His head was too large for his body, with a brute's squashed-in face beneath a swollen shelf of a brow. One green eye and one black one peered out from under a lank fall of hair so blond it seemed white. Jon watched him with fascination."

Three things jump out:
1) The description is certainly unflattering and our first reaction os like the tall beautiful brother over the short ugly one. The kingly shadow he cast at the end of the chapter may refer to his inner beauty.

2) The hair is so blond it is white when Cersei and Jaime were described as "golden". What do you get when you mix Lannister blond with Targaryen colours? White is also usually associated with albinos.

3) "Jon watched him with fascination". Does Jon associate more with Tyrion due to some unexplicable or unmentioned fact? GRRM seems to lead us here a little that there more than just a teenager's curiosity. Jon is wise beyond his young years.

Could there be an indication that Jon and Tyrion will meet again in the future and perhaps resume their talk of bastards and dwarves?

Again, I may indeed be reading way too much into it.
 
"Jon found it hard to look away from him. This is what a king should look like, he thought to himself as the man passed."

What is left unsaid is what should a kingslayer look like?
 
And the other brother, the ugly one, looked like a Kinslayer.

Another passage hit me in Jon's second chapter in AGOT. This is the one where he says goodbye to Bran, Robb and Arya. After giving Needle to Arya she says:
"I wish you were coming with us"

Jon replies:
"Different roads sometimes lead to the same castle. Who knows."

If that wasn't possibly foreshadowing, then I'll eat the book. Question is, what castle could it be where Jon and Arya would be reunited. Winterfell? Or better yet the Red Keep? I always said a ******* would sit on the Iron Throne and he would need his family around him (and an assassin).
 
Sometimes family and assassins are one and the same...

So if Jon and Arya are living in the same castle... well, go reread Jon's chapters when he thinks about Ygritte and you'll find an uncomfortable amount of comparisons between Ygritte and Arya.
 
his daughter (Lyanna) was forcibly taken by an obsessed man,

I don't think she was taken by force. She had already told her brother Ned that she didn't think highly of Robert. I think she and the prince were in love and she died in childbirth.
 
TK-421 said:
Where was this in the series?
Click to expand...

At one point Eddard remembers telling Lyanna about Robert's ******* in the vale and when Eddard points out that Robert wouldn't sleep with another woman once he marries Lyanna because he loves her she replies with something like, "Love is sweet, Ned, but it cannot change a man's nature." I think the general feeling people get off this is that the love between Lyanna and Robert wasn't really mutual and that she wouldn't have been that happy marrying him.
 
In Tyrion's 3rd chapter in AGOT, when he walks the Wall with Jon at night, Jon calls him "Friend".

Tyrion replies: "Most of kin are bastards but you're the first I've had to friend."

Foreshadowing of things to come as Heads of the Dragon?

Also at the end of the chapter, Jon tells Tyrion that his uncle is out there (beyond the Wall that is) and Tyrion tells him "to give him more time". Jon replies by saying that he and Ghost will go find him. Tyrion says" I believe you" but what he thought was: Who will go find you?

Has this foreshadow fully come pass yet? Hopefully ADWD has the answer.
 
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