Just finished GOTM

[Lenny]

Gah, I've forgotten things!

Crokus was the coinbearer, aye? He has some massive parts in the other books. There was importance to him as well for some reason or other (which, surprise surprise, I've forgotten!).

There was a mention of a myth, yes - a fella who tends that gardens on the Moon, and I seem to remember Sorry telling Crokus how she used to think there were gardens on the Moon when she was younger.

 

[nj1]

Gah, I've forgotten things!

Crokus was the coinbearer, aye? He has some massive parts in the other books. There was importance to him as well for some reason or other (which, surprise surprise, I've forgotten!).

There was a mention of a myth, yes - a fella who tends that gardens on the Moon, and I seem to remember Sorry telling Crokus how she used to think there were gardens on the Moon when she was younger.

Yeah, Crokus was the coin bearer but all he seemed to do was cary a coin and muse about being in love with da rich lass which he wasn't after all, but to me he didn't really do anything important to the outcome of events, considering he was protected by all sorts including some Crimson Guards poping up out of nowhere and then disappearing again and the way it was written I epected him and the coin to play a major role in events

 

[Lenny]

Crimson Guards?! Damn, I really need to re-read!

---

Finished GotM; have some questions (spoilers) - sffworld.com

Read through that for some other musings on the Coinbearer - it seems to be generally accepted that he played no part. I'm starting to think that the reason for it was so that he could get lucky and escape this, that and the other - a side effect of being the coinbearer.

 

[HoopyFrood]

Yes, he didn't seem to do much; it seemed to me that the coin was important mainly because of Oponn's messing about in the events of the first book. Thus when Paran decides to pull himself out of their meddling, Crokus no longer wants the coin and throws it into the lake.

Perhaps, however, Erikson will show in a later book how something small that Crokus did way back at the beginning had monumental consequences on the outcome of the entire series (just a thought...) I noticed in House of Chains the other day that Crokus mentioned the coin, wondering why he threw it away, and was asked if he regretted doing such. Perhaps he will...? (All just my own musings).

 

[nj1]

Perhaps the coin was just a lure to bring certain people together at certain times in order to change a possible out come?

 

[dreir]

Good point. The very act of trying to protect Crokus might have put several characters in places they might not have come to otherwise. But I'm tired and if I think on this too much I'd prolly end up with a sprained brain.

Hmm.. I've always thought the 'moon' in the title referred to Rake's moon. Now that I think about it, I have no idea why..

- Dreir -

 

[Quick Ben]

Well this is probably a bit off topic but since you guys are reading GOTM now I'd just ask a question since I don't have the book on me.

Early on in the book when Paran visits his home in Unta and meets his two sisters, one of them gives him the cold shoulder whilst the other is a bit more cordial, which sister is which? Can you check for me please.

Thanks in advance

 

[HoopyFrood]

Felisin is the one that greets him. Tavore is the one that gives him the cold shoulder. I'm pretty sure that's the right way around (I don't have the book to hand either), anyway, especially considering the personalities of both when their own stories start up in later books.

 

[Lenny]

It's at the end of Chapter 1, and he's first greeted by Gamet (it's amazing the things you forget, or don't take notice of until you go back to them), and then inside the house by Tavore. I haven't flicked on to find Felisin, because it'll be like trying to find a needle in a haystack the size of Wales.

And yes, I do have the book to hand.

 

[Rane Longfox]

'Unplanned,' he conceded, 'but done nevertheless. Not stationed here in Unta, though. My visit is only a few days.'
'Have you been promoted?'
He smiled. 'Is the investment about to reap coin? Reluctant as it was, we still must think in terms of potential influence, mustn't we?'
'Managing this family's position is no longer your responsibility, brother.'
'Aii, it's yours now, then? Has Father withdrawn from the daily chores?'
'Slowly. His health is failing. Had you asked, even in Itko Kan. .
He sighed. 'Still making up for me, Tavore? Assuming the burden of my failings? I hardly left here on a carpet of petals, you may recall. In any case, I always assumed the house affairs would fall into capable Her pale eyes narrowed, but pride silenced the obvious question.
'At her studies. She's not heard of your return. She will be very excited His sister snorted, turning away. 'Felisin? She's too soft for this world, brother. For any world, I think. She's not changed. She'll be happy to see you.'
He watched her stiff back as she left the hall.

So there you go

 

[Lenny]

Oh, the irony that one can see in such a small passage. I can't wait to get back to GotM and do a full re-read through of the whole series.

 

[Quick Ben]

Thanks all

That is how I suspected it would be but because Felisin turns into such a bitch later on I wasn't 100%.

All 3 are very well written characters, especially Felisin's transformation and Tavore's heart underneath all that coldness.

 

[Boaz]

First, this post may reveal a spoiler or two from the storylines of Gardens and Deadhouse.

The recent crash deleted my earlier posts here. So I apologize if I end up coming across to you as redundant.

Finished Gardens, but I have one question... What does the title Gardens of the Moon mean? Does it refer to the peaceful places of Moon's Spawn? Does it refer to the quiet places of the night (Krup's dreams, the dead god's temple, and the rooftops of Darujhistan)? Does it refer to the pleasure gardens of Darujhistan's nobility? Does it refer to the seemingly distant accessibility and alien-ness of the Warrens in the book? I'm reading Deadhouse Gates now and I'm fairly certain I know what the title means.

I agree with a post by JDP that Erikson has too much magic for my taste. I play World of Warcraft and I know that I must suspend my disbelief radically... and the cartoonish-ness helps with this. Yet in Erikson's world (which seems like Mt. Rushmore compared to WoW's Mr. Bill in terms of realism), I cannot help wonder why the magicians have not yet eradicated mundane humanity... or vice versa. If magic is that prevalent and that powerful, then the X-Men story lines of homo sapien vs. homo superior would seem to be applicable to Erikson's world.

It took me a while to get into Gardens, but I ended up enjoying it. The fact that Deadhouse did not carry on more storylines than Fiddler, Crokus, Kalam, Apsalar, Mammot's monkey, and Ganoes' sister was maddening... and Erikson did not really do anything with Fiddler except to show him playing cards. Heboric, Baudin, Mappo, Icarium, Iskaral, Duiker, Gesler, Kulp, Sormo, Coltaine, Sha'ik, Lostara, Keneb, Minala, and Beneth were more characters than I wanted to get to know from scratch. I felt like I put in my dues with Gardens and then like I started again from scratch with Deadhouse. I was not happy.

I'm halfway through Deadhouse and if Erikson does not give me a few more bones on how this story connects with Gardens on the epic geo-political and non-magical level, then I think I'm done.

I'm not saying I do not like the writing. I'm not saying I do not like the story.

I wanted a big world and a big story and Erikson has delivered. But to some degree, I'm not really sold that he really puts his characters in any danger. Sure, Gardens opened with the deaths of a number of mages, but they bore no importance upon the story. Coll, Heboric, Felisin, Baudin, and some others have been gravely wounded, but they were lucky enough to be near a mage. Ganoes, Tattersail, and that mage turned puppet all died... but were all brought back to life. The only people (with any real ties to the main plot) to die are Lorn, Mammot, Turban Orr, and Sha'ik. Erikson likes action, but until he kills off a real character I will remain unsold on the actual amount of danger to these characters.

I recently saw Spike Lee's new movie, Miracle at St. Anna. And it gives me a similar feeling to The Malazan Book of th Fallen. Miracle is three hours long... epic for a movie. It's well filmed with a high production value. It has interesting characters who exemplify every human emotion and motivation. It explores racism, parent-child relationships, justice, mercy, care for the helpless, faith, greed, lust, lonliness, comraderie, faithfulness, commitment, despair, death, war, joy, rescue, humility, and hope. But ultimately, the film never makes a firm statement on any of these themes... Lee is like a pshrink, he invites us in and explores the depth of the human psyche, yet in the end he bills us and sends us on our way without a clue of what to do with ourselves... he's noncommital. Miracle was frustrating. Oh, I almost forgot. After three hours, I still could not say what the Miracle at St. Anna actually was.

I feel that Erikson has something big and shiny here. Something fun to play with. But what does it really mean? Will he tie up all of these loose ends? I'm kind of scared of proceeding and finding out that he does not.

 

[Wiggum]

I feel that Erikson has something big and shiny here. Something fun to play with. But what does it really mean? Will he tie up all of these loose ends? I'm kind of scared of proceeding and finding out that he does not.

Same feeling here Boaz.

Personally, after reading Reaper's Gale, and the reviews from fans and critics alike, of Toll the Hounds I might be done with it.

I would recommend at least reading through Memories of Ice, because that, to me, is where he found his stride.

And it's a damn, damn good book.

But as the series progresses I've found I'm starting to loose my interest.

 

[HoopyFrood]

Erikson likes action, but until he kills off a real character I will remain unsold on the actual amount of danger to these characters.

Wait until you get to the end of Deadhouse Gates.

I think it was that moment that hooked me into the series, actually. I was enjoying it up until then, but just about keeping track of everyone and going along because I was determined to finish the book this time around. But that ending really latched me onto Erikson then.

Although I have to add, as you say above Boaz, that characters don't always seem to stay dead in Erikson's books.

And I agree with Wiggum, definitely try to make it to Memories of Ice. Kick ass book.

 

[viZion]

Spoilers follow....

I'm just over 200 pages into Memories of Ice and starting to think of quitting the series. I'm really just tired of all of the vague dialogue and inner monologues. Does anyone in this world speak straight? Does everyone have to wax philosophic about how terrible and hard their lives are? Does Erikson really think it's suspenseful to spend two paragraphs describing the surrounding plant life before finally revealing who a particular section is about? Are the Myhbe and Catelyn from ASOIAF the same person?

He does kill off a major character at the end of Deadhouse Gates. And then promptly ressurects that character in the epilogue. At least that's how I took it. Another major character also dies but you already know he lives on since he's the author of quite a few of the little history blurbs that precede each chapter. Then again, you guys could be talking about a different major character that dies that I don't even remember even though I finished the book barely a week ago.

I think before reading the Wheel of Time I would have given a series like this more of a chance. Unfortunately, I'm now extremely paranoid and tend to keep a sharp eye out for any author that seems like they might be starting let the quality slide in their series. I'll finish Memories of Ice and decide after that.

 

[Clansman]

I am where Boaz is at, and I won't repeat what he said, because he summed up my feelings on Erikson perfectly. I finished DHG, and the feeling didn't change, as I have to admit I found the ending a little unbelievable (in the Roman Empire, that general would have faced a mutiny, or his officers would have quietly made him have a quick accident, the <spoiler deleted> notwithstanding).

I have Memories of Ice, but have not started in earnest. When I finish it, I'll post back here.

 

[viZion]

I finished DHG, and the feeling didn't change, as I have to admit I found the ending a little unbelievable (in the Roman Empire, that general would have faced a mutiny, or his officers would have quietly made him have a quick accident, the <spoiler deleted> notwithstanding).

This is a good point. In Deadhouse Gates it's stated several times that Malazan soldiers are so dangerous because they allowed to think for themselves. Sure, they are accountable to leadership but that same leadership is also accountable to the soldiers. How many times have the Bridgeburners referenced all of the "accidents" their unworthy captains have suffered? I guess the soldiers in that city at the end of Deadhouse Gates had to put thinking on the backburner in order to move the plot along correctly.

 

[Boaz]

I did not mention how much I do appreciate how much effort Erikson and his co-creator have put into the genesis and backstory of The Malazan Book of the Fallen. They have impressed me with their care in crafting their fantasy world.

But (you knew it was coming didn't you?), the pace at which the information regarding different races (Moranth, Malazans, Tiste Andii, Jaghut, Trell, and various other humans), different organizations (Malazan army, Claw, Talon, Darujhistan councils, etc.), different religions, and different magic sources is so sporadic that I feel confounded.

Maybe my whole issue with Erikson is merely the fact that he cannot live up to expectations generated by the extreme praise I read here. This happens so much in life... how can one person be expected to have the exact same response to art as another person? For example, I know a guy who was set up on a blind date with a former Miss America... that poor lady never had a chance... how could she live up to that billing forty years after her title?

Erikson has a lot of good stuff here, but I'm not thrilled yet. I'm going to finish Deadhouse, but we'll see if I go any further into the series.

One caveat... Some of you may know me from the George Martin forum. I'm an admitted fan (and a big Tolkien fan, too), but I want to say that I'm not attempting to build Martin up by tearing Erikson or any other author down. TLOTR, ASOIAF and TMBOTF stand on their own merits.

 

[Wiggum]

Erikson has a lot of good stuff here, but I'm not thrilled yet. I'm going to finish Deadhouse, but we'll see if I go any further into the series.

Definitely finish Deadhouse, the ending is one of the most emotionally evocative chapters of fantasy I've ever read. Until I read Memories of Ice. He's written a couple of pieces throughout his books that may not be on a level of The Red Wedding, but he's come dang close a few times.

Thing about Erikson for me, is that, when he's on, he is ON!

When he's not, well, he's not.