"Personal" question(s) to John Jarrold

[thaddeus6th]

Yep, it's fantasy. Hard to say exactly how long it'll be right now, but I can't think it'll exceed 140k. (I bloody well hope not anyway)

Thanks

 

[Ursa major]

So, as I've said before, any new writer should do market research. Be aware of what is selling in 2007, not who your favourite authors from twenty years ago are. You aren't writing in a vacuum. You'll be compared by publishers with authors who have come to the fore, in commercial terms, over the last five years or so, because those are the comparisions that the bookselling chains are interested in. Over fifteen years working in publishing, I turned down a number of books I loved personally, because they weren't commercial.

Hi, John

To some extent, given enough time (and an analytical mind) we should be able to see the kind of things that might sell if we look at what is on sale today. (No one, I think we we can all agree, can truly know what will sell in the future).

What I would like to ask relates to something that most of us don't and can't see, namely the kind of books that are in the pipeline. Given that you have a more comprehensice view than most of us, are there any recent trends or shifts that you and your contacts in publishing believe are in progress in SF and/or F? I'm not, of course, asking for your view about saleability. (But it would be good to have your opinion. )

 

[John Jarrold]

The thing is, publishing is subjective. I published SF and Fantasy novels that every other editor in London turned down, and vice versa. Elves and dwarves are old fashioned, in fantasy terms, but a good story, very well told - like Joe Abercrombie's novels, for instance - is always going to gain attention (Joe isn't a client of mine by the way, I just like his books, storylines and characters a great deal).

The genre is more sophisticated than it once was, in terms of sheer writing, characterisation and darkness. You can't second-guess the public, so I really would suggest looking at the authors I've mentioned several times before on this forum - who write very different types of SF and Fantasy - and take on board how special they are and how good a new writer has to be to match up with them.

I'm afraid I can't just say 'Spaceships are out, cyberpunk is back in'. Doesn't work like that. Sorry.

 

[Troo]

Doesn't work like that. Sorry.

Bugger.

 

[Ursa major]

Thanks, John, but I felt I had to ask.

Your answer is what I'd expected. So its back to the bookshelf. (It's a hard life. )

 

[The Alamo Avenger]

In general terms, it might be worth looking at a possible break point, to split it into two books, and if it was TRULY wonderful, an agent or publisher would think about that.

Ok, what if there is no way to split the story up? I've thought about it and just can't see any way that would make sense. If I send it out as is, are agent's going to see the word count in my query letter and immediately disregard it? Or did you mean that if they like what they see, they would take a look a it and see if they might have a suggestion for a break point?

Have any other authors broken into print for the first time with a similarly large body of work?

 

[John Jarrold]

It's possible rather than probable. When an author is taken on, the cost of producing their book is part of the costing every editor has to do before taking a book to a meeting. Obviously, a book of this length costs more, per copy, than one half the size. If an editor is looking at a printrun of 10,000 paperbacks and the cost of production is twice the norm, that will cause a problem. Like every other business, overheads are important in publishing...and don't moan about books being produced to a standard size! 100,000 to 150,000 words is a large catchment area. You're writing for a commercial market, so of course there are parameters.

If a publisher LOVES your book - and if they only like it they won't make an offer - they may well suggest some rewriting to achieve that break point. Of course, we've occasionally seen a very long book at or near the start of a writer's career (and please consider the last five years or so, not something that was published twenty years ago, when the market and publishing itself was different), but that is one in a thousand, so I really wouldn't base your expectations on that.

 

[Brian G Turner]

Hi John;

I've enjoyed the questions and comments here immensely. Regarding your answer to the above quote.....So if a first time writer were to submit a lengthy manuscript, say around 265,000 words, would you still consider it if the writing/story/etc. were superb, or is it simply too difficult for a first time author to publish something of that length?

The reason I ask is because I recently finished a space opera of this size and just have some minor polishing to do before hitting the streets with it.

It may be worth paying for an editor (such as John) to take a look at a couple of sample chapters to see if there's obvious room for editing down.

My initial thought is that a 265k word novel could probably be slashed down to a smaller and more conventional size for publishing.

I don't say that lightly - I once write a 750k word "novel" - and my big task now is to totally edit that down to around a quarter of that. I know I can do it, because with hindsight, I can see how badly overwritten it was.

 

[Kissmequick]

John, you say we should read modern fantasy / sci fi to get an idea of where the publishing industry is but....

But I find there is just acres and acres of pap,or stuff that's OK, but not earth shattering( note to self, try those publishers, I might be in with a chance!) and very little that makes me go *WOW*. I'll admit this has got more so since I started reading as a writer rather than just settling down to enjoy it. But I can't find much modern fantasy that really engages me and loses me in the tale. They almost all fail the bath test ( if I don't notice the water's gone cold, it's a good book)

Is it just that I've got old fashioned tastes? And how can I try and write for a market if I don't enjoy the stuff that is coming through now, apart from a few authors? I'm a market too! And I'm pretty sure I'm not alone, because when I go to the library the fantasy shelves are bulging with modern authors, but all the older books are permenently out on loan - you have to be damn quick ( or order them) if you want to read them.

Sorry, having a bit of a confidence crisis and writing it down helps...

 

[John Jarrold]

Name some names, and I'll respond. But probably not until tomorrow, I'm out most of today!

 

[Theleb K]

Is it just that I've got old fashioned tastes? And how can I try and write for a market if I don't enjoy the stuff that is coming through now, apart from a few authors?

Whilst John draws a breath, I just wanted to jump in and say that I sympathise entirely with your position, mate! I have wrestled with this one and, after causing the needless and tragic death of more than a few trees, decided not to worry about it! Personally, I can only write what I write. If I keep doing it hopefully, someday I will produce something that will stand on its own merits. Blind fatalism rules....whatever!?

 

[Kissmequick]

Thanks Theleb. That's what I'm trying to do, write what I like, but I want to get published too! And I'm aware that my own work isn't exactly *OMG WOW* , yet.

Thanks John, whenever - I'm just kind of pondering out loud really

Well for the older stuff, my shelves are packed with Tolkien, Cherryh, McCaffery, Silverberg, Dragonlance, the older Feist books, Asimov, Heinlen, Harry Harrison etc etc.

Does Pratchett count as old or new? I've been reading him for 15 years so...

As for the more modern authors I'm getting into Jim Butcher, GRR Martin's newer stuff and one or two others. But the rest seem to just blur into one another after a while. In other genres this isn't the case - thrillers, whodunnits, horror and everything else on my shelf is almost exclusively modern.

Maybe it's age catching up with me 'It's not like it was in my day you know! Young un's today don't know they're born'

It makes me wonder who dictates the trends in publishing - is it the public ( in which case, why can't I find modern books that stand out for me), or do they just read what is produced / decided upon by publishers?

*has philosophical dilemma akin to what came first, the chicken or the egg*

I should stop thinking so much, it's bad for me

 

[Troo]

If you want feedback on your work, join a couple of critique groups (then settle for the honest one, not the nice one) and just start submitting short stories to independent presses (Pantechnicon, Hub, Screaming Dreams just to grab some out of the air *cough*). Their editors will give you honest feedback, sometimes more than just a "thanks but no thanks" if they have the time, and you get your writing evaluated by third parties who have no reason to be artificially nice, yet are professional enough not to give you unfounded and non-constructive criticism.

 

[Kissmequick]

Oh don't mind me, I'm having my moment of existential angst that always follows the 'good but not scintillating, so no thanks' rejection letter. And the trouble is, I see their point, they're right. My writing seems to fall in the same category as the ones I'm saying just blend into each other. Bollocks.

But I'm still learning, I will get better, oh yes, and when I do, I'm taking over the world.

See, typing all this cobblers has made me feel better

\o/

 

[Havlen]

Well for the older stuff, my shelves are packed with Tolkien, Cherryh, McCaffery, Silverberg, Dragonlance, the older Feist books, Asimov, Heinlen, Harry Harrison etc etc.

I'm glad I'm not the only old fogy here.

I agree, though, write what you write and hope the next one is inline with the market. I couldn't ever see myself writing for the market, even if that mentality makes the path to publishing more difficult. I just wouldn't have the passion for the project, and it would be like pulling teeth getting through the drafts.

But, what I can do is choose the story idea that best suits the market. Like many of us, I have plenty of ideas popping around in the head.

 

[The Alamo Avenger]

Originally Posted by Havlen I'm glad I'm not the only old fogy here.

I agree, though, write what you write and hope the next one is inline with the market. I couldn't ever see myself writing for the market, even if that mentality makes the path to publishing more difficult. I just wouldn't have the passion for the project, and it would be like pulling teeth getting through the drafts.

Took the words write out of my mouth! (sorry for the bad pun, too much Mt Dew today...)

I never thought too long of a book would be a problem. Guess I need to start getting out of my cave more often. I see plenty of lengthy Space Opera out there, Peter F. Hamilton, Alastair Reynolds, and didn't think it would be a problem. I just wrote the 'story' that was in my head and never even thought about word count until a few weeks ago when I was reading one of the posts in this thread.

Thanks for the advice, John and I, Brian. Thought I was almost at the 'finish line' (at least as far as sending my baby out there into the 'real' world) but turns out I've got a ways to go. I'm going to see if I can condense it down or make some changes to create two books instead of one. And if that fails, then you'll be seeing my submission for editing, John!

 

[lin robinson]

'good but not scintillating, so no thanks

Psshaw. I once got one that said, "Very nice book. We could sell 50,000 copies, I have no doubt. Unfortunately that's not nearly enough."

Or how about this one...reneging on a work ALREADY VERBALLY ACCEPTED? "I found it didn't grow on me like a fine wine."

 

[John Jarrold]

Thanks Theleb. That's what I'm trying to do, write what I like, but I want to get published too! And I'm aware that my own work isn't exactly *OMG WOW* , yet.

Thanks John, whenever - I'm just kind of pondering out loud really

Well for the older stuff, my shelves are packed with Tolkien, Cherryh, McCaffery, Silverberg, Dragonlance, the older Feist books, Asimov, Heinlen, Harry Harrison etc etc.

Does Pratchett count as old or new? I've been reading him for 15 years so...

As for the more modern authors I'm getting into Jim Butcher, GRR Martin's newer stuff and one or two others. But the rest seem to just blur into one another after a while. In other genres this isn't the case - thrillers, whodunnits, horror and everything else on my shelf is almost exclusively modern.

Maybe it's age catching up with me 'It's not like it was in my day you know! Young un's today don't know they're born'

It makes me wonder who dictates the trends in publishing - is it the public ( in which case, why can't I find modern books that stand out for me), or do they just read what is produced / decided upon by publishers?

*has philosophical dilemma akin to what came first, the chicken or the egg*

I should stop thinking so much, it's bad for me

Right, well first off, you are mixing SF and Fantasy togther - as far as the book trade are concerned, they are two different genres. So decide on that front. And the 'older' authors you mention are all good, but most of them don't sell well any more (with obvious exceptions). As I've said before, it is a commercial business. You are welcome to write what you like, of course. But if it isn't what the mass market is buying in 2007, don't expect it to be published, unless your writing, characterisation, plotilines and dialogue are all TOTALLY FABULOUS. It doesn't matter what you, as an individual, like reading - what the book trade can sell in large enough numbers to make a book commercially viable for a publisher is the only arbiter. Publishers aren't in business to lose money.

But do mention some of those newer writers you don't like, so I can get a handle...

 

[John Jarrold]

Took the words write out of my mouth! (sorry for the bad pun, too much Mt Dew today...)

I never thought too long of a book would be a problem. Guess I need to start getting out of my cave more often. I see plenty of lengthy Space Opera out there, Peter F. Hamilton, Alastair Reynolds, and didn't think it would be a problem. I just wrote the 'story' that was in my head and never even thought about word count until a few weeks ago when I was reading one of the posts in this thread.

Thanks for the advice, John and I, Brian. Thought I was almost at the 'finish line' (at least as far as sending my baby out there into the 'real' world) but turns out I've got a ways to go. I'm going to see if I can condense it down or make some changes to create two books instead of one. And if that fails, then you'll be seeing my submission for editing, John!

Al Reynolds certainly writes long books, and he and his agent were in dicussions with Gollancz for some time before his first was published. Peter Hamilton's first three novels, the Greg Mandel SF mysteries, were short and didn't work. But it's possible those failures would now preclude the editor from taking on THE REALITY DYSFUNCTION as things stand in 2007. It's much more difficult for an editor to continue with an author on that basis now than it was ten or more years ago, because of the power of computer sales figures in the book trade. And ther's a bit of a Catch 22 here, of course: once Reynolds or Hamilton's big books worked, the company expected big books. But with a brand-new author, the cost of production works against books as big as you are talking about. I worked with one manging director in publishing who refused to sign off on delivery advances if the finished typescript was more than 10,000 words longer than the contract stated.

If your writing, plotlines, characters etc are as terrific as Reynolds, you may have a chance at this length - but in genral terms, size matters. It's interesting, because I also receive comments from authors who think 100,000 words is too long. You may say: A book is its own length. I'm simply telling you how commercial publishing works.

 

[John Jarrold]

But, what I can do is choose the story idea that best suits the market. Like many of us, I have plenty of ideas popping around in the head.

Exactly. I really don't see this as a strait-jacket. I'll say it again: in SF terms, Jon Courtenay Grimwood, Charles Stross, Neal Asher, Alastair Reynolds and Richard Morgan have all become commercially successful in recent years. They are writing in different areas of SF. I just don't see a problem - but I'll tell you this. After twenty years of working in SF and Fantasy publishing, I know that some authors use the 'market' as a reason their books don't get published, when the actual reason is much simpler: they ain't good enough.