"Personal" question(s) to John Jarrold

[Havlen]

It's not so much 'last year' as 'I could have published this ten years ago...' In terms of the UK market for instance, in the mid-90s everyone was publishing humorous fantasy and trying out new authors in that area regularly, but by 2000 it was clear that the Terry Pratchett market was just that: a market for Terry Pratchett. The only other authors in that area who work at all are Tom Holt and Robert Rankin, both of whom have been published for over twenty years. And they sell a small percentage of the copies that Terry shifts annually.

Thought I'd go back and comment on this one since it sadly seems to be the case. I say sadly not just because one of the books I have gotten to a published state is a humorous fantasy, but because they are some of my favorite books. When I think back to the fantasy books I really enjoyed reading there are, of course, the more serious variety, but alongside them are the likes of Douglas Adams, Tom Holt, Robert Asprin, Craig Shaw Gardner, John DeChancie (not as well known as those others, but Castle Perilous was great!), etc.

I also find that I really enjoy writing humorous fantasy. After I took my first stab at one, I decided I always wanted to be writing something humorous alongside of something serious.

My question: If a person were published with a serious fantasy book and sold well -- not necessarily great, but well enough that the publisher wasn't thinking of dumping them -- would they have a better chance at getting something like this past an editor, or will they run into the same 'its just not marketable' problem as an unpublished author.

 

[John Jarrold]

The same problem, I'm afraid. If the book chains aren't taking humorous fantasy and you're known for mainstream fantasy, you'd need to be a HUGE name to have a chance of selling it - like John Grisham selling a novel that wasn't a legal thriller a few years ago, which he got away with because he's John Grisham and his publishers can't afford to turn down a book from him. He also had the sense to tell them 'This is one I have to write, but then I will go straight back to legal thrillers', so they could pass that on to the book chain head offices...so think about the fantasy authors on a level with Grisham. Anyone else - no chance. Not enough readers buy them now - and publishers stopped publishing new authors in this area AFTER sales dropped, they weren't the cause of sales dropping. Believe me, publishers want to make money, so they want to publish in every area that sells sufficient copies.

 

[John Jarrold]

All I can say is that it's personal. I think the best SF and Fantasy authors of the last ten years are all top rank, but individuals will always have an individual reaction. I love political machinations - the mix of POV in GRRM's books (and all the best epic fantasies) works much better, in commercial terms, than a single viewpoint. If 100,000 people buy an epic, multi-POV Robert Jordan novel, and Conan's sales are around 3,000 copies, you can see which one a publisher is going to take on.

Incidentally, that line about bestsellers paying for more outre books to be published is a load of rubbish. In commercial publishing, each book has its own costing, and has to justify itself financially, there is no crossover because you are also publishing mega-sellers. That's true in every mainstream publishing imprint in London and New York.

SORRY, THIS IS IN REPLY TO KISSMEQUICK

 

[Wezman]

Thought I'd go back and comment on this one since it sadly seems to be the case. I say sadly not just because one of the books I have gotten to a published state is a humorous fantasy, but because they are some of my favorite books. When I think back to the fantasy books I really enjoyed reading there are, of course, the more serious variety, but alongside them are the likes of Douglas Adams, Tom Holt, Robert Asprin, Craig Shaw Gardner, John DeChancie (not as well known as those others, but Castle Perilous was great!), etc.

I also find that I really enjoy writing humorous fantasy. After I took my first stab at one, I decided I always wanted to be writing something humorous alongside of something serious.

My question: If a person were published with a serious fantasy book and sold well -- not necessarily great, but well enough that the publisher wasn't thinking of dumping them -- would they have a better chance at getting something like this past an editor, or will they run into the same 'its just not marketable' problem as an unpublished author.

You have struck on a problem that hit me. I write humorous fantasy, as John will know, and had some great rejections from the bigger boys, John included. All praised the writing and style, but did not want to publish humorous fantasy. Jo Fletcher of Orion even suggested I write a YA and provide them with a brief outline and synopsis; no need to send samples as she liked my style, but, due to external pressures, have not got my head around that one yet. Also, I found a publisher who loved what I wrote and offered me a contract. Reluctant Heroes came out in October and is selling well. I have a ten shop booksigning tour arranged for February 08, book 2 comes out 8th March 08 with book 3 March 09. I have a book launch where I live on 8th March and another at a fantasy con in Dublin on 29th March. A follow-up book tour for book 2 is in the agenda for April. All is going exceptionally well, in a genre that the bigger boys say will not sell.

Who is right?

The feedback I am getting is extremely positive from readers, more than a few saying they can't get enough of my style, which they likened to Robert Asprin. Like kissmequick has said, the majority of new books out there I can't get passed the first 100 pages. Mostly they are too overwritten on description, too convoluted or are part of 6 - 12 book series that regurgitates the same theme after book 3.

Thank goodness for the small press, says I, for without them a lot of new writers would never be able to get a breakthrough. Ok, small press has the usual distribution problems, etc, but, from personal experience, they fall over themselves to help the author. They seem to realise that help means more sales which means more loot in their bottom drawer.

OK, end of rant.

Wez

 

[Teresa Edgerton]

Incidentally, that line about bestsellers paying for more outre books to be published is a load of rubbish.

Whenever I've heard anyone say something along those lines (and some of them were editors) they were speaking of the fact that the bestsellers keep the publishers in business, pay the salaries, keep their stockholders happy, etc., so that they can publish the smaller books that earn more modest profits and take a chance on new books that might not pan out at all (but which they naturally hope will be wildly successful). Surely when meant in this way it isn't rubbish? Or was it true, but not anymore?

 

[John Jarrold]

It may be that it was true twenty years ago, Teresa. But now, when books either work very well or not at all, in the UK with a book that was not in the centre of the market you'd be looking at printruns of 3,000 paperbacks - the sales department supply the printruns when you take a book into a publishing meeting - and you would not be allowed to offer for a book on that basis. A dozen years ago, I had four or five books to build an author. Now, with a new writer, if the first book does'nt work to some degree, you're pretty much sunk, because book chain orders are purely based on computer sales figures, so as an editor, you are only looking to take on authors you believe will sell very well from day one...

 

[John Jarrold]

You have struck on a problem that hit me. I write humorous fantasy, as John will know, and had some great rejections from the bigger boys, John included. All praised the writing and style, but did not want to publish humorous fantasy. Jo Fletcher of Orion even suggested I write a YA and provide them with a brief outline and synopsis; no need to send samples as she liked my style, but, due to external pressures, have not got my head around that one yet. Also, I found a publisher who loved what I wrote and offered me a contract. Reluctant Heroes came out in October and is selling well. I have a ten shop booksigning tour arranged for February 08, book 2 comes out 8th March 08 with book 3 March 09. I have a book launch where I live on 8th March and another at a fantasy con in Dublin on 29th March. A follow-up book tour for book 2 is in the agenda for April. All is going exceptionally well, in a genre that the bigger boys say will not sell.

Who is right?

The feedback I am getting is extremely positive from readers, more than a few saying they can't get enough of my style, which they likened to Robert Asprin. Like kissmequick has said, the majority of new books out there I can't get passed the first 100 pages. Mostly they are too overwritten on description, too convoluted or are part of 6 - 12 book series that regurgitates the same theme after book 3.

Thank goodness for the small press, says I, for without them a lot of new writers would never be able to get a breakthrough. Ok, small press has the usual distribution problems, etc, but, from personal experience, they fall over themselves to help the author. They seem to realise that help means more sales which means more loot in their bottom drawer.

OK, end of rant.

Wez

It really depends what 'selling well' means. For a mainstream publisher, they are looking at 8,000 to 20,000 paperbacks, in UK terms, then ongoing sales. A smaller house may see 2,000 sales as a Good Thing, but it wouldn't work for Gollancz, Orbit or the other mainstream imprints. So it's a Good Thing that there are other routes than mainstream publishing!

 

[Wezman]

It really depends what 'selling well' means. For a mainstream publisher, they are looking at 8,000 to 20,000 paperbacks, in UK terms, then ongoing sales. A smaller house may see 2,000 sales as a Good Thing, but it wouldn't work for Gollancz, Orbit or the other mainstream imprints. So it's a Good Thing that there are other routes than mainstream publishing!

I agree. With the relative success of the likes of PS Publishing, to name but one, small press is a viable route into getting your work out there. As you rightly say, sales of 2000 will be considered good sales for the smaller houses whereas the bigger boys will want in excess of 8000. Now there's a traget!

 

[John Jarrold]

Merry Christmas, Steve!

 

[Wezman]

Merry Christmas, Steve!

Cheers John! And have a darn good one yourself. After the year you have had, meaning house moves here, I think you deserve it.

All the best,

Steve

 

[Kissmequick]

All I can say is that it's personal. I think the best SF and Fantasy authors of the last ten years are all top rank, but individuals will always have an individual reaction. I love political machinations - the mix of POV in GRRM's books (and all the best epic fantasies) works much better, in commercial terms, than a single viewpoint. If 100,000 people buy an epic, multi-POV Robert Jordan novel, and Conan's sales are around 3,000 copies, you can see which one a publisher is going to take on.

(I'm assuming the bestellers paying for more outre books bit wasn't for me, because I'm pretty sure I didn't say that)

Well I understand that, even if it does mean I don't get as many books that turn me on as I might do. I understand that publishing is a business, and you have to go for what sells, even if it annoys the hell out of me and reduces my want to read list to almost nothing....

The POV thing, well as I've said, the constant changing really pulls me out of my engagement with the character, but that's a purely personal thing. I'm sure plenty of people love it, all I can say is I don't. I don't want to be distracted form a character who is alive and interesting for the sake of it.

But surely there is some kind of market for those things that don't include the fashion for political stuff, for people who just want to see a bit of dewwing do ( no not a spelling error, just a monty python moment)

Python were a risk, and went on to make people a lot of money, same as say Star Trek, a series that was cancelled 'because no one liked it', or possibly because it 'didn't make enough money' yet is now so universal it's not funny. Older writers may not get the sales they once did, but then they don't get the marketing either, do they?

I understand mainstream publishers may not take the chance. They are in it for the money ( well it's a major consideration anyway) of course. But I'm feeling a tad marginalised because the books that come out are not what I want. ( and yes I know, I'm picky, possibly old fashioned in my tastes, but I know what the hell I want, and for the most part I'm not getting it)

what do I want? I want interesting characters, not the bland and impersonal ones I'm getting. I want them to leap out and take hold of me. I want fire and brimstone and spunk and guts and...You get the idea. Not a synopsis of current events, or a detailed biography of every single day in the life of one character. Hitchcock once said film ( read fiction) is a life with all the boring bits taken out - and that's what I want! I want action, I want personal sacrifice, I want the dream of another world fully and both physically and emotionally realised, I want a book that when I finish it leaves me hopeful about the condition of the human race, that people with the same flaws as I have can and do make a difference, that the most unlikely people can do something that affects the world they live in. I want to leave a book sated by the wonder of the world, to dream about what it would be like to live there and know the people who inhabit it! I want an escape from this world to another better place ( why I don't like the polotics probably). I surely can't be alone with that? I know I'm not, tbh, but I also know that a lot of readers (young 'uns usually)aren't so demanding and will read what is put in front of them.

I have a young mate, 21, who had read a few modern fantasies and decided that apart from Tolkien and Pratchett, he didn't like the genre. So I lent him a few books ( Morgaine, Magician and Lord Valentine's Castle as it happens). He turned up two days later with a stunned look on his face, having read Morgaine, and his words were, and I quote ( bar the swear words) 'Bleeping hell, I never knew fantasy was like that!' He's now a firm and committed fantasy fan, working his way through my bookshelf of older writers. Doesn't that say something about the genre as it is?

Sorry John, I'm in no way getting at you( this more a letter to myself, working out how I feel about it all), but this has been a growing little seed in my mind. Is fantasy going the way of everything else? Becoming just another 'pander to the masses and sod everyone else' thing? There are some great books out there ( and thanks for the heads up on Abercrombie btw ) but there are a whole world of people out there who each have their own tastes, and it would be a shame if a whole section of them never read fantasy because the fashion at the time was for something they didn't care for.

And yes, I'm probably being a Grumpy Woman ( I ain't that old yet!)

 

[Teresa Edgerton]

Now, with a new writer, if the first book does'nt work to some degree, you're pretty much sunk, because book chain orders are purely based on computer sales figures, so as an editor, you are only looking to take on authors you believe will sell very well from day one...

But surely when a publisher acquires a book by a new author under the impression the book is going to be profitable they aren't always right -- some of these experiments with new authors must result in money lost, no matter how canny the people in charge of working out the costs in advance? Those losses must be absorbed somehow.

And considering how many (or how few) books an SFF imprint puts out a year, could that many books selling 8,000 copies each really generate enough income for salaries, overhead, etc? Don't the books that sell 50,000 copies, 100,000 copies take up some of the slack?

Or does a publisher make more money selling 8,000-12,000 copies than I think they do?

 

[John Jarrold]

. Older writers may not get the sales they once did, but then they don't get the marketing either, do they?

Most books don't get marketing spends. The old writers sales decreased long before marketing came into the genre in a big way. Not enough people wanted to read their work...every genre changes. Sorry!

 

[Kissmequick]

Fair enough - as I said I'm pretty much thinking out loud about something that's been bothering me a while.

I shall concede that little point...

although actually I was thinking that my local bookshop often does a window display of new fantasy - I've never seen it do one of classic SFF ( except Tolkien when the films came out)

 

[John Jarrold]

Gollancz does pretty well with the SF Masterworks, and some shops (and online sellers) do promote them. But you're not really going to be happy whatever I say! New books sell better.

 

[Wezman]

what do I want? I want interesting characters, not the bland and impersonal ones I'm getting. I want them to leap out and take hold of me. I want fire and brimstone and spunk and guts and...You get the idea. Not a synopsis of current events, or a detailed biography of every single day in the life of one character. Hitchcock once said film ( read fiction) is a life with all the boring bits taken out - and that's what I want! I want action, I want personal sacrifice, I want the dream of another world fully and both physically and emotionally realised, I want a book that when I finish it leaves me hopeful about the condition of the human race, that people with the same flaws as I have can and do make a difference, that the most unlikely people can do something that affects the world they live in.

Sounds like you'd enjoy mine. No intentional sales ploy intended. *cough, cough*

 

[Kissmequick]

Yeah I know - I'm being crotchety, but only because fantasy is my first love in fiction, and I'm depressed about the way it seems to be going. It's something that's bothered me for a while. I wamt the new books to fire me up the same way the old ones did, and they don't! There's so little to them.

*sigh* I'm just going to have to wait for really interesting characters to come back into fashion.

oh and wez, yours is on my list of *books to buy* god help you.

 

[John Jarrold]

As far as I'm concerned, they never left. I'm 54, and I've read SF and fantasy for the best part of forty years. There's never been a time when I've liked everything, but there's never been a time when I haven't been able to find Good Stuff, either. I just don't expect the market to bend to my personal likes and dislikes!

 

[Kissmequick]

Lol, yeah I know. I don't expect the whole thing to bend to me, far from it, I realise everyone's tastes are different, and that was more my point tbh. I've never liked everything the genre has to offer, but until recently I've always been able to find something. Yet now even that seems restricted. There are so many tastes, wouldn't it be sensible to cater to more of them? Just the occassional one would be nice

 

[John Jarrold]

And if it sold enough copies, mainstream publishers would. I'm sorry, I think fantasy is a wonderfully broad church in 2007. Much more so than ever before.