"Personal" question(s) to John Jarrold

Hi John,

happy to see you're back.

Being able to compare one's work to the current market is a must, you said this more than once. A new writer should do her homework, all right. But should any similarity be stressed when submitting to an agent?

I've been reading several editors' blogs, and most say that comparing oneself to a best-selling author is a major reason for not taking the submitted novel seriously. In fact, I can imagine an agent snickering at the umpteenth emulator of G.RR. Martin.


Does that mean that if my work can be compared (in any small way *coughs*) to a famous author's production, I should keep that thought to myself and desperately search for a younger avatar of this author, in order to be believable in my presentation?
 
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I understand john, I was just letting a bit of frustration out.


But do mention some of those newer writers you don't like, so I can get a handle..
I try to forget them.....:)

It's not that most are bad, but none( or extremely few) of them are fabulous. I want to read a book and be blown away - and it's not happening with modern fantasy writers ( although other genres it is). I want excitement, adventure, and really wild things! I want great characters that grab me in sharp teeth and shake me till I give in! I'm not seeing them, or very rarely. There is just acres of mediocre stuff that will do at a push.

And the worst bit? I can't write that story either. I'm not good enough to be published yet. BUT at the same time very little is published in fantasy that IS fabulous imo. I have no role model.
 
Hi John,

happy to see you're back.

Being able to compare one's work to the current market is a must, you said this more than once. A new writer should do her homework, all right. But should any similarity be stressed when submitting to an agent?

I've been reading several editors' blogs, and most say that comparing oneself to a best-selling author is a major reason for not taking the submitted novel seriously. In fact, I can imagine an agent snickering at the umpteenth emulator of G.RR. Martin.


Does that mean that if my work can be compared (in any small way *coughs*) to a famous author's production, I should keep that thought to myself and desperately search for a younger avatar of this author, in order to be believable in my presentation?

I think you can make it clear to an editor or agent that you are aware of the market without saying baldly: 'I wrote this for the readers of ...' But, yes, for your own use, knowing the market - and what NOT to write as much as anything - is vital. If Terry Brooks' or David Eddings' first novels were presented to editors today, they would not be published. If TIGER, TIGER or THE DEMOLISHED MAN by Alfred Bester, two of my personal favourite SF novels - arrived on an editor's desk in 2007, the first comment would be 'Make it much longer'.
 
I understand john, I was just letting a bit of frustration out.


I try to forget them.....:)

It's not that most are bad, but none( or extremely few) of them are fabulous. I want to read a book and be blown away - and it's not happening with modern fantasy writers ( although other genres it is). I want excitement, adventure, and really wild things! I want great characters that grab me in sharp teeth and shake me till I give in! I'm not seeing them, or very rarely. There is just acres of mediocre stuff that will do at a push.

And the worst bit? I can't write that story either. I'm not good enough to be published yet. BUT at the same time very little is published in fantasy that IS fabulous imo. I have no role model.

As I've said elsewhere, I'm a great fan of Joe Abercrombie's recent fantasy novels, and I also liked Alan Campbell's SCAR NIGHT a great deal. I think everyone knows that George R R Martin is my overall favourite of recent fantasy novelists. I just wish he'd finish books more regularly!

And remember that each editor has their likes and dislikes, too. So there is a subjective side to which authors are taken on, as well as a market-based aspect.
 
I think you can make it clear to an editor or agent that you are aware of the market without saying baldly: 'I wrote this for the readers of ...'

Thank you, John,

But...

Blushing for being so thick... Let's say I've done my homework; now the problem is that I have no idea about how to hint at this in a subtle way.

Please, forgive my being so naïve...
 
Maybe: 'I've been a fantasy reader for xxx years, and my favourite writers include...I love their strong characters/brilliant description and worldbuilding/wit and intelligence...'
 
John,

Speaking of personal question...

... among your favourite authors, you mention Roger Zelazny (Lord of Light, if memory serves me well) and you also add "before Amber".

Besides the "I like/I don't like"
(as my dad said "De gustibus non est disputandum" :))... what would you say about the Amber Cycle, professionally speaking?

Would Amber be considered for publishing, today?
 
As I've said elsewhere, I'm a great fan of Joe Abercrombie's recent fantasy novels, and I also liked Alan Campbell's SCAR NIGHT a great deal. I think everyone knows that George R R Martin is my overall favourite of recent fantasy novelists. I just wish he'd finish books more regularly!

And remember that each editor has their likes and dislikes, too. So there is a subjective side to which authors are taken on, as well as a market-based aspect.


Oh I realise it's all subjective. This wasn't about why I'm not getting published ( I know why, I'm not good enough yet, as I've said), but more why I rarely find a book that grips me beginning to end from a modern fantasy writer. As a reader I'm getting disillusioned with the genre, and the current books being published. Are there books that I'd absolutely love, that aren't getting published because they aren't 'fashionable'? Possibly I'm getting too jaded.

I'm not sure whether I've tried Abercrombie, but it doesn't ring a bell, so I shall pop to my bookshop :D
 
It isn't about being fashionable, it's about being SALEABLE! If a specific person doesn't chime with general public taste, that's tough. It happens to us all at some points.

As I said, books from new writers are usually turned down because they aren't good enough. In terms of some long-term authors, they aren't published any more because their sales figures went down and down. If an author used to sell 20,000 paperbacks and his last book sold 4,000, following a general down-turn is his sales, he is not going to get a deal.
 
John,

Speaking of personal question...

... among your favourite authors, you mention Roger Zelazny (Lord of Light, if memory serves me well) and you also add "before Amber".

Besides the "I like/I don't like" (as my dad said "De gustibus non est disputandum" :))... what would you say about the Amber Cycle, professionally speaking?

Would Amber be considered for publishing, today?

I enjoyed the first book (apart from the part stolen from FAREWELL MY LOVELY) but gradually became less interested in the characters by the third and fourth volumes.

As for today - well, Charles Stross' MERCHANT PRINCES series has been compared to Amber.
 
Thank you, John

The first novel of the Amber series, Nine Princes in Amber, is the best one, I agree. The following books grew on me when I re-read them, although an editor would advise against the wealth of ellipses R. Z. used. I do remember not reading those digressions the first time.

I must read C. Stross, then.

Neil Gaiman also says that Zelazny was one of his major influences.
 
I read all of Zelazny's early novels around 1970/71. then Amber came on the scene. As you say, LORD OF LIGHT remains my favourite, but I still enjoy THIS IMMORTAL, THE DREAM MASTER and some of his other early novels, and much of his short fiction. I didn't enjoy the novels after TO DIE IN ITALBAR so much. Personal thing.
 
Oh I realise it's all subjective. This wasn't about why I'm not getting published ( I know why, I'm not good enough yet, as I've said), but more why I rarely find a book that grips me beginning to end from a modern fantasy writer. As a reader I'm getting disillusioned with the genre, and the current books being published. Are there books that I'd absolutely love, that aren't getting published because they aren't 'fashionable'? Possibly I'm getting too jaded.

I'm not sure whether I've tried Abercrombie, but it doesn't ring a bell, so I shall pop to my bookshop :D

Here is a list of the major fantasy debuts in 2006, FYI. I have posted this before, but it might be of interest:


GOLLANCZ

THE BLADE ITSELF - JOE ABERCROMBIE. Dark and witty with a background reminiscent of the recent fantasy bestsellers from Steven Erikson. Featuring cowardly officers, cynical but fascinating torturers and a magi who may be a fake.

THE LIES OF LOCKE LAMORA – SCOTT LYNCH. Set in an analogue of Italy around the fifteenth century, with a protagonist who might be called a mixture of the Artful Dodger and Oliver Twist, times 100. Wonderful background and characters, and deeply funny.

THR STORMCALLER - TOM LLOYD. Young outcast 'white-eye' is called to replace the charismatic Lord Bahl, as prophecies wind around him. Very dark. Good sense of place.



TOR UK/MACMILLAN

SCAR NIGHT - ALAN CAMPBELL. Real tour-de-force, compared to Mervyn Peake and China Mieville, but more central to the commercial fantasy genre, featuring swords and witches, for instance. But the city and land in which it's set is all-important, and wonderfully conjured. Campbell has designed the GRAND THEFT AUTO computer games.



ORBIT

THE DEVIL YOU KNOW - MIKE CAREY. First UK author to join Orbit's burgeoning 'supernatural thriller' stable (which includes Laurell K Hamilton and Kelley Armstrong). Sleazy, down-at-heel and witty. Carey wrote the graphic novels HELLBLAZER and LUCIFER, and has written for Marvel and DC over a number of years.

WINTERBIRTH - BRIAN RUCKLEY. Fantasy series being compared by the publisher with Robert Jordan and David Gemmell. Human clans, ancient races, gritty realism and wars that range across continents.


HARPERCOLLINS VOYAGER

TEMERAIRE - NAOMI NOVIK. Horatio Hornblower meets Anne McCaffrey's dragons in a fantastical Napoleonic War. Good characters, interesting plot-lines, already selling very well both sides of the Atlantic, and first in a series.


The fifth major fantasy publisher in the UK, Bantam/Corgi, didn’t publish any debuts in 2006. These all have sweeping narratives (except the Carey, which is written for a specific sub-genre), so you need to consider that, when thinking about commercial publication. Setting is also extremely important.
 
(as my dad said "De gustibus non est disputandum" :))
Ah that resolves the question. No more is the expression's origin unknown possibly medieval. It was Giovanna's dad who said it.:D


As we are talking about personal questions anyway.
Have you never felt the urge to write a (fantasy) novel yourself, John. With your knowledge and connections it shouldn't be too hard to dodge the pitfalls and then edit it up to something publishable. (I won't say it will be a bestseller, but still it would be above all decent)
Is it the lack of wanting to do it (you prefer reading and editing), or is it more that you would never finish a chapter as you can't help but to edit and re-edit? Or something else? Maybe you have published under another name, who knows;).
 
I was in a writers' group in the late 70s, with Robert Holdstock, Garry Kilworth, Michael Scott Rohan and others. I didn't feel I was good enough - but I can honestly say that I have had my own rejection slips, so I know how it feels (albeit for short stories, not novels). Occasionally, an idea for a novel or series of novels occurs to me and I write it down and save it to the hard drive. Who knows, maybe one day one of them will come to fruition. But for now, between the agency and the editing, I'm busy, busy, busy!
 
Pfft, it's always my luck to like what's not around! Awkward from the day I was born:D

Anyway, got an Abercrombie today, and it may be the thing to give me back my faith - just the kind of thing I like, so far. I was just sooo frustrated, all these books bought, and though some I quite liked, there was no wow factor. I'm hoping this has changed now!
 
I'm still interested to know what you don't like and why. Fantasy has never had a wider catchment area - thank god we've got away from those boring post-Tolkien series - and SF novels from newer writers are more exciting than any time in the last forty years...
 
Al Reynolds certainly writes long books, and he and his agent were in dicussions with Gollancz for some time before his first was published. Peter Hamilton's first three novels, the Greg Mandel SF mysteries, were short and didn't work. But it's possible those failures would now preclude the editor from taking on THE REALITY DYSFUNCTION as things stand in 2007. It's much more difficult for an editor to continue with an author on that basis now than it was ten or more years ago, because of the power of computer sales figures in the book trade. And ther's a bit of a Catch 22 here, of course: once Reynolds or Hamilton's big books worked, the company expected big books. But with a brand-new author, the cost of production works against books as big as you are talking about. I worked with one manging director in publishing who refused to sign off on delivery advances if the finished typescript was more than 10,000 words longer than the contract stated.

If your writing, plotlines, characters etc are as terrific as Reynolds, you may have a chance at this length - but in genral terms, size matters. It's interesting, because I also receive comments from authors who think 100,000 words is too long. You may say: A book is its own length. I'm simply telling you how commercial publishing works.

Well, I certainly believe that what I'm writing is as good as Reynolds, although he definitely has a little more 'hard science' bent than I do. I would actually commit the supreme hubris :cool: (supreme because he's published, I'm not) and say that my plotlines are more complex than his, with a larger cast of characters more comparable to Pandora's Star. Though some of (ok, all of) Hamilton's descriptions in that novel put me to shame.

At the end of the day, I may just decide to send it out as is and not comprimise my artistic integrity. It may not put food on the table, but at least I will rest well knowing that I gave it everything I had. I appreciate your insight into the publishing world, however, which is something I know nothing about and gives me food for thought on how I'm going to approach things this time around. I tried to publish a fantasy novel back in the mid-nineties, but nothing ever panned out and I scrapped the whole thing. It's definitely a tough business, but I guess that's why writers have agents and musicians have managers--to go to bat for us.
 
I'm still interested to know what you don't like and why.

Now there's a question! And not one I can answer in a few sentences, but I'll give it a go.

I read many different genres, depending on my mood. In thrillers, mysteries and whodunnits, plot is king. I can deal with slightly weak characters, because if the plot isn't up to snuff, if I can guess the end more than a few pages before the protagonist, it doesn't matter how well drawn the characters, the book has failed.

With sci fi and horror, plot and characters are equal.

But with fantasy, my ultimate escape, character is above all. I can put up with a weak plot if I have to, but the charcters HAVE to engage me, be well drawn and realistic, be above all interesting, larger than life and twice as ugly, or I won't get far. It is how the character sees the world that draws me into it. Two dimensional Druss doesn't do it for me, but Conan leaps off the page like he's about to rip my throat out - and because of that I'm hopelessly drawn into his world and can pretty much ignore any failings.

Also there are a matter or two of personal preference - for instance I'm not one for intricate political machinations ( if I want that I can read the paper!), and I do like a fair bit of action rather than prolonged introspection.

For example, I love GRR Martin, he's done some of my fave short stories, but though A Game of Thrones is without doubt a very good book, with well drawn characters, all that politcal manouvering didn't really do it for me. The constant swapping of viewpoint in each chapter I found jarring too - just as I was getting a handle on the charcater, getting engaged, we swap to someone else. And of course, it's the character I want to get into. I kept wanting to skip to the next Tyrion chapter...So it is a very good book, very well written, but due to my personal taste, not in my top 5.

The books I've been reading - well having a look on my shelf, in the last year I've bought 15 books by authors I've not read before, published in the last seven years. I'm not going to name names because this is purely my subjective opinion.

3 are good books, no doubt about it, but not fantastic. I'll keep them, and probably read them again. The charcters were well drawn, but not exhilerating. Plot was good, well written with a nice style, but didn't set my world on fire. say 8/10. May buy these authors again, to see if I just chanced on a less good work of theirs.

4 are pretty good, but slightly weak / bland characterisation, the people didn't really engage me, reasonable plot. I didn't have to struggle to the end, but the bath water didn't get cold. 6-7/10

2 are also pretty good, but very very slow. Nicely written but little or no action until the last third of the book, by which point I was almost past caring. Last third of the books were excellent though so 6-7/10

3 are less good, but still readable ( even if only to ask myself 'why didn't this work?' so I can avoid it myself) People either under characterised, far too bland, or they don't develop at all. Coupled with weak / predictable plots. 4/10

2 also less good, but more due to lack of writing style( or at least one I liked) coupled with weak characterisation through underwriting, though the plot was strong. 4/10

1 - soooo bad I wouldn't even think of giving it to a charity shop. It's going in the bin. I didn't get past the first 100 pages. While the male protagonist was reasonable, two female charcters ( one a POV character) were so badly done it was embarrassing. Clunky descriptions that were either overblown or almost non exisitant. Weak cliched plot. Switching internal monologues/ POV between characters without any indication, or even much of a reason, making the whole thing confusing. Last straw was when one character has their lifelong dream completely shattered and says something like 'Oh well never mind' and there is no other reaction, physical or emotional :eek: Basically I was willing the main character to die. A minus score out of ten.

phew, my brain hurts now.
 

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