"Personal" question(s) to John Jarrold

[John Jarrold]

Ye, the very basic thing that every new writer must accept is that their writing will be dealt with based on its merit. The fact that they are very young, dyslexic, or anything else, is only of interest after the fact of an editor believing the WRITING - the prose, characterisation, story, dialogue, invention et al - is outstanding. And if the specific editor to whom it is submitted doesn't think that, the book will be turned down without anyone else in the company looking at it. On that front it is a level playing field, which is obviously as it should be.

 

[Troo]

Cheers for the in-depth, Peter. Very handy

 

[Anne Lyle]

Hi John, good to see you back! I missed your return to Chronicles, having been nose-down in a rough draft of Book Two of my novel series back in November. Sympathy on the back problem - I well know how frustrating it is to be otherwise healthy but unable to sit at a computer for more than a couple of minutes at a time.

OK, on to the question...

I was wondering how much of a ghetto SF&F is these days. In other media, stories with fantasy and SF elements seem pretty popular across a wide range of audiences (e.g. Pirates of the Caribbean), but does the reading public still divide sharply into those who read the genre and those who avoid it like the plague? (Aside from exceptional crossover hits like Harry Potter.) I know that some publishers are actively seeking SF that will appeal to a wider audience - is that a general trend you are seeing?

The reason I ask is that my work-in-progress doesn't seem to me to fit neatly into a genre - it has a strong historical setting but with elements that could be described as either fantasy or SF, depending on where you draw the line between the two. You'll no doubt get to see it when it's done - - but I'm also going to send it to non-specialist agents (at least, the ones who don't say "no SF or fantasy" in their listings/websites!). I guess I'm a little nervous of getting a "not enough SF/F content" response from agents/editors like yourself and a "too much SF/F" from the mainstream. Not that I'm going to let it affect my writing at this point, but I'd like to know what to expect when I do pitch it.

Thanks in anticipation

 

[John Jarrold]

I don't think there is any doubt that fantasy is a much broader church than it once was - you'll see other comments about the move away from directly 'Tolkienesque' fantasy - so genre publishers are certainly open to a much wider area of novels than of yore. Most of the publishers who don't publish in the genre have no interest whatsoever in SFF (some of their CEOs equate the genre with publishing sleazy erotic fiction), and the mainstream still tends to look down on it, which is their loss! So any author needs a clear view of what they are writing, and knowledge of where the genre stands in 2008.

And never confuse films with the publishing world. For decades, SF was king in movies, and fantasy didn't work or make money (until the Lord of the Rings films), whereas the exact opposite was true in books. So concentrate on the book world. Good luck!

 

[John Jarrold]

I know that some publishers are actively seeking SF that will appeal to a wider audience - is that a general trend you are seeing?

The reason I ask is that my work-in-progress doesn't seem to me to fit neatly into a genre - it has a strong historical setting but with elements that could be described as either fantasy or SF, depending on where you draw the line between the two. You'll no doubt get to see it when it's done - - but I'm also going to send it to non-specialist agents (at least, the ones who don't say "no SF or fantasy" in their listings/websites!). I guess I'm a little nervous of getting a "not enough SF/F content" response from agents/editors like yourself and a "too much SF/F" from the mainstream. Not that I'm going to let it affect my writing at this point, but I'd like to know what to expect when I do pitch it.

Thanks in anticipation

Sorry, I should also say that historical fantasy is a major sub-section of the genre, so no problem there. But on the 'wider audience' side, be aware that Hodder, who publish Jasper Fforde, consider him a mainstream bestseller, nothing to do with SF and Fantasy (one isn't allowed to mention those words when discussing him). Editors there have specifically told me that they don't want to see any SF or Fantasy so I shouldn't bother submitting any of my clients to Hodder. Go figure.

 

[Anne Lyle]

But on the 'wider audience' side, be aware that Hodder, who publish Jasper Fforde, consider him a mainstream bestseller, nothing to do with SF and Fantasy (one isn't allowed to mention those words when discussing him). Editors there have specifically told me that they don't want to see any SF or Fantasy so I shouldn't bother submitting any of my clients to Hodder. Go figure.

Thanks for your answers, John. I guess little has changed since Ursula Le Guin wrote her essay "[SIZE=-1]Why are Americans afraid of dragons?" back in the 1970s

The reason I mentioned mainstream agents is I met an agent who has asked to see my book when it's finished, simply on the basis of the historical period (of which he's a fan), and he's very successfully sold a somewhat-closer-to-mainstream alt history in recent years. But I take your point that in general, mainstream publishers just won't be interested.
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[maguffin]

Thanks for your answers, John. I guess little has changed since Ursula Le Guin wrote her essay "[SIZE=-1]Why are Americans afraid of dragons?" back in the 1970s

The reason I mentioned mainstream agents is I met an agent who has asked to see my book when it's finished, simply on the basis of the historical period (of which he's a fan), and he's very successfully sold a somewhat-closer-to-mainstream alt history in recent years. But I take your point that in general, mainstream publishers just won't be interested.
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Two things there I noticed, 1. "Americans are afraid of dragons", but only in the literary world for some reason. In movies fantasy is a hugely popular genre and make a ton of money but they can go out of fashion quickly. 2. An agent liked something because he had a personal relationship to it. That speaks volumes and if one could find out the personal likes of an agent/publisher/editor and then, if it's decently written, a writer could be way ahead of the game. I find that (only in conversation) if someone has turned something down (because of subject matter, not writing) I always ask if they know somebody who might be interested in it. Often they are glad to help and mention a few names. Then when I go to the names mentioned I drop in the name of the person who recommended them! It makes people feel you are in touch with the business and as a result are slightly more open to approach.

John, how would a writer go about finding out such info on an agent/editor? I know that what they publish or who they represent isn't always what their tastes dictate, that there are other factors in play.

 

[John Jarrold]

Well, in genre terms yes, look at their authors. Publishers and agents all have personal likes and dislikes, which inform the books they buy in tandem with their knowledge of the commercial market. But there isn't a list anywhere! In UK terms, the SFF imprints are not interchangeable, so take a look at the overall list of titles , as well as individual authors - and the same might be true of agents, who usually list their clients on their websites.

I can't point at myself here, since I love SF, Fantasy and Horror! Lots of other stuff, too, but those genres are 95% of my client base and will remain so. I prefer relatively sophisticated writing to thud-and-blunder stuff, but so does the market in 2008.

 

[Gary Compton]

Hi John,

I have a question for you, I know you are a busy editor and spend alot of time dealing with your agency clients but I wondered had you ever considered writing your own book, is it something you might like to do one day, and what genre would you do it in?

As always I look forward to your comments.

 

[lin robinson]

Hey, we Americans aren't afraid of dragons, man!

They're just hard to exploit.

 

[John Jarrold]

Hi John,

I have a question for you, I know you are a busy editor and spend alot of time dealing with your agency clients but I wondered had you ever considered writing your own book, is it something you might like to do one day, and what genre would you do it in?

As always I look forward to your comments.

I was in an SF writers' group in the late 70s, with people like Robert Holdstock, Garry Kilworth and Michael Scott Rohan. Basically, I wasn't good enough - and it was very salutary having authors I respected talking about my work. But I have had my rejection slips, so I know how it feels.

I love SF and fantasy, of course, and horror, and crime, and historical fiction, and thrillers...I think I can promise you it wouldn't be a literary novel!

 

[maguffin]

I think I can promise you it wouldn't be a literary novel!

Lord forbid!

But it does prompt a question. Does the 'literary' SF/Fantasy/Horror appeal more to UK agents and publishers and does that (dare I say) snobbery disappear with the US agents and publishers?

And can we define 'literary' SF or genre writing?

As always interested in your thoughts John.

 

[lin robinson]

can we define 'literary' SF or genre writing?

If you try, best bring along a lunch.

 

[maguffin]

If you try, best bring along a lunch.

Yes, quite and a coffee into the afternoon too. But I think it is quite significant because what may be defined as literary SF/Fantasy might the very thing that pushes the writing into a more mainstream market, something I am aiming for.

Personally I feel uncomfortable using the word literary since every fictional book is literary. Phillip K. Dick might be regarded as literary now (or not) but may not have been regarded in that way before. There is also some great Russian sci-fi that was written many years ago that isn't looked at in the same way and has a 'literary' flavour and would be regarded by academics as 'serious' fiction ie Stanislaw Lem (actually he was Polish, but you get the picture). Wiki quote "In 1976, Theodore Sturgeon claimed that Lem was the most widely read science-fiction writer in the world." That must have made him commercial at least, you'd think.

Not arguing for anything here just trying to get a handle on the market I guess.

 

[iansales]

Easiest way to get a handle on the market is to go into your local Waterstone's and see what novels they have on the table-top displays in the sf section, and what books on the shelves have the covers facing out.

 

[John Jarrold]

Lord forbid!

But it does prompt a question. Does the 'literary' SF/Fantasy/Horror appeal more to UK agents and publishers and does that (dare I say) snobbery disappear with the US agents and publishers?

And can we define 'literary' SF or genre writing?

As always interested in your thoughts John.

No, intelligent SF and Fantasy appeals - the genre is more intelligent and sophisticated than it was twenty years ago. In the US, the size of the market - not a lack of snobbery, which has bugger all to do with good writing, as opposed to literary pretension - means that there is a bigger market for the pulp areas that just don't sell enough in the UK anymore. Markets change...

Never confuse sophisticated writing with snobbery.

 

[John Jarrold]

Easiest way to get a handle on the market is to go into your local Waterstone's and see what novels they have on the table-top displays in the sf section, and what books on the shelves have the covers facing out.

What he said...

 

[John Jarrold]

Yes, quite and a coffee into the afternoon too. But I think it is quite significant because what may be defined as literary SF/Fantasy might the very thing that pushes the writing into a more mainstream market, something I am aiming for.

Personally I feel uncomfortable using the word literary since every fictional book is literary. Phillip K. Dick might be regarded as literary now (or not) but may not have been regarded in that way before. There is also some great Russian sci-fi that was written many years ago that isn't looked at in the same way and has a 'literary' flavour and would be regarded by academics as 'serious' fiction ie Stanislaw Lem (actually he was Polish, but you get the picture). Wiki quote "In 1976, Theodore Sturgeon claimed that Lem was the most widely read science-fiction writer in the world." That must have made him commercial at least, you'd think.

Not arguing for anything here just trying to get a handle on the market I guess.

Most of what you say here has nothing to do with the market - in which the word 'literary' does have a specifc meaning, particularly when used by critics of posh fiction, wishing to man the barricades against genre writers! So, no, on that basis, every fiction is NOT literary!

 

[maguffin]

Most of what you say here has nothing to do with the market - in which the word 'literary' does have a specifc meaning, particularly when used by critics of posh fiction, wishing to man the barricades against genre writers! So, no, on that basis, every fiction is NOT literary!

'Posh fiction', a phrase that made me laugh. So really it is a critics axe to grind (manning barricades I mean) rather than a publishers but then again isn't a lot of SF looked down upon in certain publishing circles or have I got it wrong again? Or is it as simple as who you go to?

 

[Gary Compton]

I think that quite honestly you should write what's in your head. My own book might not get anywhere but at least I have tried. I don’t even spend a nano second considering the market/competition as all I want to do is finish the best story that my talent/inspiration will allow, as Confucius said.

'A man who does nothing never makes any mistakes'. So if my story is meant to be then fate will intervene and the rest will be history.

I am pretty sure that JK Rowling back in her council flat and on benefits when she started the Harry Potter phenomenon would not have believed the success that awaited her... just go for it and write it before you expend your last breath.

.