Newbie post a thread: Least favorite death

[Boaz]

For Tommen I Baratheon to abdicate and become Lord Tommen Lannister under Daenerys I Targaryen, someone must negotiate a deal. Who? Who speaks for House Lannister? Jaime? I cannot imagine his diplomacy with Dany will go any better than it did with the Blackfish. Lancel? Hardly. Genna? Although she's intelligent, educated, ruthless, and tough as nails... she's a Frey. Cersei? She'll do anything to save her last child, but I dunno that the Lannsiters will follow her... her plans are always bad. Daven? As the Warden of the West, he's probably in the best position to provide a suitable compensation for the western lords.

Or... Tyrion? The only problem is that he wants Casterly Rock for himself... he's not giving it to Tommen. It's hard for me to imagine andy settlement in which Dany allows any direct offspring of Tywin Lannister to survive. Of course, my favorite way to get around this is to claim that Tywin Lannister never fathered any children. If Cersei, Jaime, and Tyrion are all actually half siblings of Daenerys (Caersei, Jaeme, and Tyraen), then reconciliation becomes possible.

As for Perkin Warb... err, I meant, Aegon... I think that Connington believes he's Rhaegar's son. Connington got the boy and secret support from Illyrio. But if Baby Aegon was smuggled out of KL before the Sack, then Varys (an ally of Illyrio) either arranged the escape or knew of it. Either way, he knows Aegon's identity... but how can anyone disprove Aegon? The eyes and hair are strong evidence. I think only Varys' direct testimony to Dany will convince her either way.

 

[svalbard]

I believe that Tyrion's story arc is going to take him well beyond a lordship of Casterly Rock, which should leave it open to Tommen, once his uncle take's the Iron Throne...now chew on that for a moment

 

[Boaz]

svalbard, I like Tyrion, but how is he going to get the political and military clout to gain the throne? Sure, he's sold himself to Ben Plumm and the Second Sons to stay alive. Yes, he hopes to convince Ben to switch back to Dany's side... but that's going to be difficult because Ben already betrayed Dany. If she believes this is one of her three prophesied betrayals (for money), then she'd like to have Ben's head on a spike.

And without Tyrion as his prisoner, Jorah will not want to face Dany. She'll have his head as well. I think Jorah will take action before anyone sends him to the executioner. He might kill Ben. He might flee. He might kidnap Tyrion.

If Tyrion convinces Dany to not kill him... Ben... or Jorah, then he's got to convince her to accept him as Lord Lannister and not a bargaining chip. If he can do that, then Tyrion will have to convince Dany to marry him.

Why would Dany marry him? House Lannister and the western lords don't want him as their liege. Without support he's useless as a Lannister. He's a convicted kingslayer, handslayer, and whoreslayer. He doesn't carry any weight with the other six kingdoms. Dany could easily find a western house ready to throw off the yoke of the Lannisters. Aegon the conqueror did this repeatedly... Houses Tyrell and Tully both abandoned their old allegiances and were rewarded. Heck, House Bolton just did the same thing. So if Tyrion's name and money mean nothing, then what can he offer her?

Well, he does have a year's experience as Hand and another as Master of Coin. His track record in both positions was good... but the population of King's Landing hates him. They hate him for taxes, suppression of honest men like Janos Slynt and Allar Deem, destruction of property, thuggery (supplementing security with Clansmen), and regicide.

Without men, money, weapons, and connections, what does Tyrion have to offer? His good looks?

What will be Dany's greatest need as Queen of the Seven Kindoms and the re-founder of the Targaryen Dynasty? Family. An heir. Dany supposes herself barren. She'll need a.... a... a man so virile that he can undo prophecy with his heroic seed. Robert might have been that man, but Tyrion's whores have never conceived.

In my mind, the only way Tyrion gains real position in Dany's government (besides his cleverness) is through Varys' admission that Tyrion is Dany's half-brother.

As to the topic of this thread... Tyrion's death will be my least favorite. I like Jaime and I want to see him find redemption... but he's a villain. I'll be sad to see him die, but not as melancholy as I'll be to see Tyrion leave the story.

 

[svalbard]

Everything you say makes perfect sense. But I have a feeling that Martin has great things planned for our favourite dwarf.

As to least favourite deaths...that would still be The Viper. In a way I was more shocked at his departure than that of Ned's. Not because of his importance to the story, but because he was such a damned good character.

I think Jaime is destined to die. I just hope Martin gives him a proper send off. Something like a Tower of Joy scene would do nicely. Or are Jaime and Ser Barristan destined to fight each other?

 

[Boaz]

I also fully expect GRRM to get Tyrion in a position to of power in which he can exact revenge... I just don't see how he'll do it.

Barristan and Brynden, both are Jaime's heroes, are both excellent candidates as Jaime's executioners. And since Jaime's injury, fighting either of them would be an execution.

Tyrion has sworn to kill Jaime.

But he's now in the clutches of Stoneheart. She's not letting him go. She'll have to be dead... again... before he can leave. Hanging from a gibbet would be anticlimactic... but I would not say he did not deserve it.

Brienne is another candidate. Could she justify killing Jaime the way he justified killing Aerys? She's the only one who knows that story.

And what about Jaime killing Cersei and himself in a murder-suicide?

 

[ArstenWhitebeard]

I think Jorah will take action before anyone sends him to the executioner. He might kill Ben. He might flee. He might kidnap Tyrion.

What, again? How many times can one man kidnap the same man?

Tyrion can offer Dany his mind, including his extensive knowledge of dragons, and his extensive knowledge of the weaknesses of Kings Landing and Alcatraz Casterly Rock.

 

[Boaz]

Historical and theoretical knowledge of dragons is good... I forgot. Maybe Tyrion can help her... and maybe if Dany goes through Asshai, the Wizard will give her a brain.

We're off to see the Wizard
The Wonderful Wizard of Oz-shai.
We hear he is a Whiz of a Wiz
If ever a Wiz there was
If ever, oh ever, a Wiz there was
The Wizard of Oz-shai is one because
Because, because, because, because, because
Because of the wonderful things he does
We're off to see the wizard
The Wonderful Wizard of Oz-shai!

Dany: If I only had a brain.
Barristan: A king.
Tyrion: Some legs.
Jorah: A home.


Grey Worm: Really? I'd just settle for a _____.

 

[ArstenWhitebeard]

Hahahaha

very good Boaz.

 

[Deɑth.]

EXCUUUUUUUUUUSE ME!!!! I know perfectly well that little whore (rich coming from me) is evil, she can't be anything else. But I only like cool evil people, she's a is a dirty, skanky biatch and needs death in the most horrible ways possible.

I shall personally make sure she doesn't get near either Tyrion or Dany, who by the by will NOT be eating/getting their dragons to eat Cersei.

RENLY WAS NOT GAY!!!!

I'm not a closet tree hugger, I'm very open about it. *hugs tree*

p.s. concerning your cheesy jokes, it made me laugh far too hard

I'm pretty sure it's heavily implied Renly was homosexual. Loras Tyrell being his lover.

 

[ArstenWhitebeard]

I'm pretty sure it's heavily implied Renly was homosexual. Loras Tyrell being his lover.

You would be correct. It seems to be a pretty open secret in Kings Landing, at elast among the nobility.

 

[Deɑth.]

Even Jaime himself says so to Loras.

"Now sheathe your bloody sword, or I'll take it from you and shove it up some place even Renly never found."

Also, my least liked death was Tywin's. I understand he wasn't exactly the most friendly character out there, but the way he died was so degrading for an amazing character. He wasn't Joffrey, a sociopath that amuses himself by torturing others, to recieve such threatment.

Then again, I'm not saying Tyrion shouldn't have killed Tywin. He had every right to do so.

 

[ArstenWhitebeard]

I'm not sure if this should count here, but one "Death" that really bothered me was the destruction of Ice, the Stark's sword. Reading about what happened to the sword was almost as bad as reading about what happened to Ned.

 

[Anushka Mokosh]

I'm not sure if this should count here, but one "Death" that really bothered me was the destruction of Ice, the Stark's sword. Reading about what happened to the sword was almost as bad as reading about what happened to Ned.

IKR! I think I had more tears in my eyes for that sword than for characters I liked...

 

[Deɑth.]

ITT: People mad because Tywin so badass.

 

[ArstenWhitebeard]

ITT: People mad because Tywin so badass.

I have been thinking about that actually. I mean, definately Tywin is a badass. The story of him staring down that knight who made a joke about him crapping gold is amazing.

But was Tywin really as great a military leader as everyone thought he was? I know, Blasphemy right? But think about it.

He severely underestimated Robb Stark which allows Robb to wreak havoc in the westerlands and he also understimates Edmure Tully, who defeats him at the battle of the crossings. Losing that battle turns out in his favour as it allows him to save Kings Landing, but come on, he lost a battle to Edmure Freaking Tully, who everyone agrees is a pretty ***** commander. He gets credit for defending kings landing in the battle of the blackwater, but that is more of a Tyrell victory really. They had twice Tywins numbers and Garlan Tyrell led the Vanguard that did much of the fighting, and Garlan Tyrell, dressed as Renly, routes stannis' army. There are also some terrible things you can lay at Ttywins feet.

The rape and murder of Princess Elia and her children
The Red Wedding
Everything Gregor Clegane, Amory Lorch and Vargo Hoat does during the war.
The Sack of Kings Landing
The extermination of house Tarbeck and House Rayne, which, for some reason, he is fiercely proud of.

There is no doubt that he was a good administrator and as hand of the king (Aerys) he did provide the realm with many years of peace and prosperity, but I don't think he was the military strategist everyone thought he was.

 

[Deɑth.]

I have been thinking about that actually. I mean, definately Tywin is a badass. The story of him staring down that knight who made a joke about him crapping gold is amazing.

But was Tywin really as great a military leader as everyone thought he was? I know, Blasphemy right? But think about it.

He was good. Not Genghis Khan-level, but he was good.

He severely underestimated Robb Stark which allows Robb to wreak havoc in the westerlands and he also understimates Edmure Tully, who defeats him at the battle of the crossings. Losing that battle turns out in his favour as it allows him to save Kings Landing, but come on, he lost a battle to Edmure Freaking Tully, who everyone agrees is a pretty ***** commander. He gets credit for defending kings landing in the battle of the blackwater, but that is more of a Tyrell victory really. They had twice Tywins numbers and Garlan Tyrell led the Vanguard that did much of the fighting, and Garlan Tyrell, dressed as Renly, routes stannis' army.

As I said above, he was good. He was a human that was decribed as a terrorific man due his ruthless and cold nature, but never particulary praised for his skills in war. Mostly his abilities to increase his house's wealth and to strategicaly put puppets in key places. But moving on from that.

What you just said is the reason of why you don't piss off The North. Why? Because The North is the largest realm of Westeros by far and, therebefore, should have more Houses sworn House Stark and more men to fight at war. There's a reason of why the King's Court agreed (or seemed to agree) that Ned Stark should have been sent alive to The Wall because an insult such as beheading the Lord of Winterfell after calling him in the traitor in the eyes of mortal and God will just provoke The-So-Honourable North. It is large, disciplined, loyal and fiece. An enemy you dont' want to face. Everyone but Joffrey knew that.

Leaving that aside, didn't Tywin try to cross the river and sucessfuly did? Also, defending a river is easier to do than actually try to cross it since you're retaining the enemy while the latter is trying to cross and we all know such advanced ships of war didn't exist in those medieval times. Edmure is a ****ty commander, but he had the upperhand, more men and, most likely, their army was more loyal to the Stark cause than the Lannister one because the so-praised "honour" most of the northmen have with the exceptions of House Frey (though, they belond to the riverlands, if anything) and House Bolton (they're all insane).

Another of Tywin's flaws in the war is his arrogance because he didn't expect a 16-year-old kid to outsmart him. Though, in all fairness, Robb did have good advisors by his side and, as I've said before, loyal men. However, Tywin knew that he was a dealing with a serious threat, thus, the reason he orchestrated the Red Wedding, to get rid of Robb and his general commanders. Not to mention the fact he rushed into war quickly as he was afraid of the Vale raising arms with Robb, making things even more difficult. He knew better than to face him countless times in the battle, losing wealth and strength in the process. Specially considering Stannis was still alive, The Vale could raise with The North and then, you have the ambiguous Dorne. As a remainder, this all happened before the Reach joined the Westerlands.

The Lannisters had enemies just about everywhere. Tywin was good, but he was a human at the end of the day, not a God.

Also, I don't see how the Battle of Blackwater makes him a bad commander. If anything, he was smart enough to realize he couldn't deal with Stannis' massive army just by himself. By joining hands with the Tyrell he gained power and political influence. Not to mention securing the Reach and not let them raise their arms against the Iron Throne once more because that would have been overkill.

There are also some terrible things you can lay at Ttywins feet.

The rape and murder of Princess Elia and her children
The Red Wedding
Everything Gregor Clegane, Amory Lorch and Vargo Hoat does during the war.
The Sack of Kings Landing
The extermination of house Tarbeck and House Rayne, which, for some reason, he is fiercely proud of.

I don't see how any of this can diminish his prowess as a battle commander. He was an asshole? Without a doubt. The "Rains of Castamere" was a move to solidify the Lannisters' reputation as a fierce house that won't show weakness in front of their vassals.

The Red Wedding was, if anything, a strategic move of Tywin to not lose more strength and resources dealing with the gigantic North.

I can't really defend him in the entire Tysha incident or the murder of Elia, though. Tywin had it coming, at the end of the day.

There is no doubt that he was a good administrator and as hand of the king (Aerys) he did provide the realm with many years of peace and prosperity, but I don't think he was the military strategist everyone thought he was.

If anything, my post was just to provoke Srylanna. Which failed because she knows me too well.

 

[ArstenWhitebeard]

As I said above, he was good. He was a human that was decribed as a terrorific man due his ruthless and cold nature, but never particulary praised for his skills in war. Mostly his abilities to increase his house's wealth and to strategicaly put puppets in key places. But moving on from that.

Oh but he Was praised for his skills in war. often and by many people both in the series as well as peopl;e on this forum.

Leaving that aside, didn't Tywin try to cross the river and sucessfuly did? Also, defending a river is easier to do than actually try to cross it since you're retaining the enemy while the latter is trying to cross and we all know such advanced ships of war didn't exist in those medieval times. Edmure is a ****ty commander, but he had the upperhand, more men and, most likely, their army was more loyal to the Stark cause than the Lannister one because the so-praised "honour" most of the northmen have with the exceptions of House Frey (though, they belond to the riverlands, if anything) and House Bolton (they're all insane).

No, he didn't cross, he was thrown back by Edmure, who, we all agree, was a S----y commander. Yes, defending a river is easier than forcing a crossing, but I don't think Edmure had more men, and he didn't actually have many northmen. Edmure was left with just enough riverlands men to defend Riverrun. He wasn't supposed to deploy them to the field, so he wouldn't have had that many. He brought some more men from the twins to be sure, including about 200 northmen, but Tywin was supposed to have a huge army and is supposed to be a seasoned battle commander. Again, forcing across a river would be difficult, but tywin didn't really use any kind of tactics. He sent a few probes out, which were pushed back, then he came in force. Brienne explains it best. She says he is just feeling with his fingers, then he will make a fist and punch through, or at least try to. the only battle that Tywin Lannister won during the war (apart from the blackwater, but more on that later) was the battle against Roose Boltons troops, and Roose was never expected to win that battle, it was just a feint. It was the equivalent of Robb Stark waving his hand in the air to get Tywin's attention, then kicking him in the nuts.

Another of Tywin's flaws in the war is his arrogance because he didn't expect a 16-year-old kid to outsmart him. Though, in all fairness, Robb did have good advisors by his side and, as I've said before, loyal men. However, Tywin knew that he was a dealing with a serious threat, thus, the reason he orchestrated the Red Wedding, to get rid of Robb and his general commanders. Not to mention the fact he rushed into war quickly as he was afraid of the Vale raising arms with Robb, making things even more difficult. He knew better than to face him countless times in the battle, losing wealth and strength in the process. Specially considering Stannis was still alive, The Vale could raise with The North and then, you have the ambiguous Dorne. As a remainder, this all happened before the Reach joined the Westerlands.

My point exactly. Tywin underestimated Robb. one of the rules of combat is to never EVER underestimate your apponent. And shouldn't Tywin have known that Robb would have councilors? did he expect that Robb would be fighting by himself? As you say, Tywin knew that the North and the Northmen would make dangerous enemies, so even if he didn't think much of Robb, he should have known that the northmen would give him a hell of a fight anyway. As I said, it doesn't do to underestimate your enemies and a good battle commander wouldn't have done that.

Also, I don't see how the Battle of Blackwater makes him a bad commander. If anything, he was smart enough to realize he couldn't deal with Stannis' massive army just by himself. By joining hands with the Tyrell he gained power and political influence. Not to mention securing the Reach and not let them raise their arms against the Iron Throne once more because that would have been overkill.

I wasn't saying the blackwater makes him a bad commander, I was just saying that he got credit for a victory that wasn't his. People say he won the battle of the blackwater and that he saved kings landing, but even if Tywin wasn't there, the Tyrell's men would have been able to break the seige almost as easily. the battle of blackwater isn't evidence that he is a bad commander, but it isn't evidence that he is a good one either. it was Tyrion's idea to make common cause with the Tyrells, not Tywin's, and if Littlefinger hadn't brokered that alliance, then Stannis would probably have crushed Tywin and Kings Landing.

I don't see how any of this can diminish his prowess as a battle commander. He was an asshole? Without a doubt. The "Rains of Castamere" was a move to solidify the Lannisters' reputation as a fierce house that won't show weakness in front of their vassals.

The Red Wedding was, if anything, a strategic move of Tywin to not lose more strength and resources dealing with the gigantic North.

I can't really defend him in the entire Tysha incident or the murder of Elia, though. Tywin had it coming, at the end of the day.

yeah, those examples again are not evidence that he is a bad battle commander. He is a rutheless man whose reputation is based on him doing despicable things. The Red Wedding was a strategic move that saved his men from having to take to the field again. Essentially, He was so scared of having to continue fighting Robb Stark, that he orchestrated the most despicable act to happen in the series so far.

In discussions, we sometimes look back (with perfect hindsight) at things either Robb, Renly, or Stannis should have done differently in the war, but there were so many ways that Tywin could have made a faster end to the war long before the Red Wedding would have been necessary.

 

[Anushka Mokosh]

He was good. Not Genghis Khan-level, but he was good.

True enough. Only in ASOIAF terms, there are far better battle commanders than Tywin will ever be. Tywin is a man for time of peace. He does well enough in the times of war, but his greatest victories relied on simply overpowering the opponents and then just being ruthless to avoid having to do it again.

As I said above, he was good. He was a human that was decribed as a terrorific man due his ruthless and cold nature, but never particulary praised for his skills in war. Mostly his abilities to increase his house's wealth and to strategicaly put puppets in key places. But moving on from that.

His prowess as a battle commander lies in the ability to choose the battles that he can win, but he overestimated himself or rather underestimated Robb. It was an error of judgement on his part. He was being led around by a "mere green boy".

What you just said is the reason of why you don't piss off The North. Why? Because The North is the largest realm of Westeros by far and, therebefore, should have more Houses sworn House Stark and more men to fight at war. There's a reason of why the King's Court agreed (or seemed to agree) that Ned Stark should have been sent alive to The Wall because an insult such as beheading the Lord of Winterfell after calling him in the traitor in the eyes of mortal and God will just provoke The-So-Honourable North. It is large, disciplined, loyal and fiece. An enemy you dont' want to face. Everyone but Joffrey knew that.

Wrong. The North is the largest realm, but North is very sparsely populated. It doesn't have the population the size would imply. You don't piss of North because it can easily detach itself from the rest of the 7Kingdoms and you'll have no easy way to reconquer it. It is easily defensible from the south due to geography of the area and the fact that Northerners would never truly accept a Southern rule without a lord of their own. As for the mindset, there I agree.

Leaving that aside, didn't Tywin try to cross the river and sucessfuly did? Also, defending a river is easier to do than actually try to cross it since you're retaining the enemy while the latter is trying to cross and we all know such advanced ships of war didn't exist in those medieval times. Edmure is a ****ty commander, but he had the upperhand, more men and, most likely, their army was more loyal to the Stark cause than the Lannister one because the so-praised "honour" most of the northmen have with the exceptions of House Frey (though, they belond to the riverlands, if anything) and House Bolton (they're all insane).

Doesn't really matter what kind of commander Edmure is. Point is, Tywin wanted to cross that river and fall into Robb's trap. Edmure saved his hide. It isn't a failure because Edmure managed to withstand him. It is a failure because Tywin tried at all. He was being outwitted by Robb on every corner yet he failed to see the trap even there.

Another of Tywin's flaws in the war is his arrogance because he didn't expect a 16-year-old kid to outsmart him. Though, in all fairness, Robb did have good advisors by his side and, as I've said before, loyal men. However, Tywin knew that he was a dealing with a serious threat, thus, the reason he orchestrated the Red Wedding, to get rid of Robb and his general commanders. Not to mention the fact he rushed into war quickly as he was afraid of the Vale raising arms with Robb, making things even more difficult. He knew better than to face him countless times in the battle, losing wealth and strength in the process. Specially considering Stannis was still alive, The Vale could raise with The North and then, you have the ambiguous Dorne. As a remainder, this all happened before the Reach joined the Westerlands.

Robb was also a very proficient commander. Most of the tactics, he came up on his own with little input from his advisers. Tywin realised it was too late to win the war against Robb by conventional means because he underestimated him. Red Wedding is also in a large part a culmination of Tywin's failures at the battlefront.

The Lannisters had enemies just about everywhere. Tywin was good, but he was a human at the end of the day, not a God.

A lot of those enemies were made by Tywin himself though.

Also, I don't see how the Battle of Blackwater makes him a bad commander. If anything, he was smart enough to realize he couldn't deal with Stannis' massive army just by himself. By joining hands with the Tyrell he gained power and political influence. Not to mention securing the Reach and not let them raise their arms against the Iron Throne once more because that would have been overkill.

It is not that it makes him a bad one. It is just that it isn't a proof of him being a good one. Most of the fighting and planning and battle cunning that won it was employed by someone else. Tyrion's plans contributed greatly. Garlan's stunt was definitely very effective and he lead, commanded the vanguard that did the fighting. It is just that the victory isn't something to be attributed to Tywin and count into his resume so to say.

I don't see how any of this can diminish his prowess as a battle commander. He was an asshole? Without a doubt. The "Rains of Castamere" was a move to solidify the Lannisters' reputation as a fierce house that won't show weakness in front of their vassals.

It is more evidence of his ruthlessness and the fact that he wanted to rule with fear and respect and nothing else.

The Red Wedding was, if anything, a strategic move of Tywin to not lose more strength and resources dealing with the gigantic North.

It was, but it also does more harm than good in the long run for the Lannisters after his death as he didn't leave anyone capable. Now, the Red Wedding is a huge stain on his house because everybody knows Frey wouldn't dare to do it without his leave. Lannisters with Tywin there in years to come to do damage control on the reputation would have done well. Lannisters without Tywin and now without Kevan and with Cersei in charge are going to suffer a lot for the Red Wedding. Tywin failed to make contingency plans there.

I can't really defend him in the entire Tysha incident or the murder of Elia, though. Tywin had it coming, at the end of the day.

That is indisputable. However, I should point out that he never planned to have Elia dead because he wanted her as a bargain chip with Dorne. He just wanted her children dead and I think that would have also been an oversight on his end.

If anything, my post was just to provoke Srylanna. Which failed because she knows me too well.

Yes, I do know you well. And you know me.

 

[Deɑth.]

Before we restart everything, how do I quote in this new format? I don't feel like writing "QUOTE" every single time.

Edit: I mean, how do I separate each quote to make my paragraphs more readable?

 

[Brian G Turner]

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