What About Sansa?

[Queen Cersei]

who beats who wiggum????

 

[Jaqen VM]

I'm finding some interesting thoughts here....

Apparently it's okay for eight-year-olds to be incredibly naive and optimistic about the world... but not thirteen-year-old girls who aren't raised to think beyond the next jousting match, marriage, tapestry, etc.

I remember myself at thirteen- not too different from Sansa, actually. I talked about boys for hours on end, mooned around, and closeted myself in my room with a book to avoid any problems. I certainly couldn't be expected to take a pragmatic look at life or to act like an adult. And if I had thought that giving away a secret would save my father's life- heck yeah I would have told. I would have spilled the beans a hundred times.

Give the girl a break! She started out an idiot, but how many of us were seasoned diplomats at that age?

I guess maybe I'm a bit naive but when I think of a royal family in times as volatile as the scenario has been set in the entire sceries (at least 3 generations prior to her birth) I would expect a member of a royal family who has had the amount of devastating setbacks that the Starks have had would be less inclined toward naivity. I would also think that the family would recognize this in Sansa and help address that.

They obviously didnt, and not only did they not but they attempted to quelch the tendacies in Arrya that I feel they should have encouraged.

But all that said, Sansa was EXTEEMLY naive. Even for one of 13. You have to put your family above all else. Does she not remember the stories of how her uncle and grandfather died? That alone should be enough that you would NEVER stand by another and lie against your own sister.

Sansa's wolf died...I think her wolves spirit died with her. I would not be shocked at all of what Sansa could become.

 

[Queen Cersei]

Now, now Jaqen, those are harsh words. Remember, Sansa was convinced she was doing good for her father, and she would have been if Joffrey hadn't been such an insufferable twat.
She was too trustworthy, and naive in AGOT maybe, but she's learning, slowly. Why does everyone condemn her just from AGOT???? 3/4 books on, she's been through so much, but she's never made mistakes that big again, and I daresay she'll turn into a paranoid wreck, so give her a break...

 

[Raven]

I guess maybe I'm a bit naive but when I think of a royal family in times as volatile as the scenario has been set in the entire sceries (at least 3 generations prior to her birth) I would expect a member of a royal family who has had the amount of devastating setbacks that the Starks have had would be less inclined toward naivity. I would also think that the family would recognize this in Sansa and help address that.

By 'devastating setbacks', I presume you're referring to the deaths of Rickard, Brandon and Lyanna, right?

But all of those happened before Sansa was even born. In her lifetime, the Starks had had nothing but peace and nothing bad had ever happened. Moreover, her father hardly spoke about those losses: to her, they were only stories of the past, and not ones she heard often. So why should she not be naive? When nothing bad has ever happened to you, you tend to be at least a little naive...

I take your point about the family, though. It does rather look as if Ned was in denial there, so far as we know he had no thought for the future at all - no marriage contracts for Arya or Sansa, no fostering or squiring for Robb, Jon or Bran... he seems to have assumed everything would keep on as it had been for the last fifteen years in perpetuity.

They obviously didnt, and not only did they not but they attempted to quelch the tendacies in Arrya that I feel they should have encouraged.

What tendencies? Her tendency to be rude and disobedient? Those are the only things I remember her being told off for...

 

[the smiling weirwood]

Yes, she didn't start killing people until after her father died and her mother was longer present. Not that any responsible parent would dissuade her from murder and thievery.

 

[Queen Cersei]

Ned, bless him, was rather naive himself, as his only plan of going about the world was sticking to his honour, so how was Sansa to know any better????

 

[Koopa]

I am sorry, but when i was thirteen i knew better then to run away from my family. She knew her father wanted them gone, she knew something was going down, even in her naive little mind she knew something was happening.

I can understand why she went to the queen and betrayed her father(she probably doesnt realize her betrayal), but that she is so dimwitted to let her be taken captive (at this point she knows something big is gonna come by for sure), volantarily, i mean, she does not talk with her father, and she runs away from home and hides for 2 days, this is past naive, and the fact that she runs away from her father like that at age 13 is unsettling when he has always treated his children well, can you imagine this, in a hard world, in wich she is coddywoddled she runs away from a good and loving house in wich she receives all that she needs and is trained in all the necessary skills she runs away like a incredible brat, i would even understand this at lets say age 16 but she is 13 and till then shown to be well-mannered, girlish and also the dutiful one, and then she does a thing like that all supposedly for love's sake.

ALL THAT for love's sake, i know it is said people do weird things when they are in love, but this goes to far. Hell she doesnt even only love Joffrey, she is AT THE EXACT SAME TIME in love with Loras, and then she goes and do a thing like that. Its the author fault, but of all the starks i only dislike sansa, ow and Catelyn is a tully, no matter what, to me she is born a tully and she has remained a tully and so far Sansa is truly her mother daughter and another damned tully, only the disgraced blackfish, the unwanted tully is worthy of true merit, the rest of them are worhless

 

[Jaqen VM]

I agree Kiwi.


And I dont solely blame Sansa (though I do loathe character regardless of what she does from this point forward for turning her back on her FAMILY!!). Ned should have been a much wiser father and made sure that his family both understood and did not forget his brother and fathers demise. It was his responsibility to make sure his children knew that family was the only protection they had against the evil surrounding them. I think he tried..and I think that he failed.

Yes I'm speaking of Brandon and Rickards demise, but from the stories told along the way you get the sense that the starks have never had a peaceful time of it. Several of the Brandons had it rough. I could go back and look for specifics but I think you get the gist.

Regardless of anything else though, you dont turn your back on your family and if you do you get what you deserve.


There can be no excuse for not sticking to your blood kin, especially for one of her age and obvious ignorance of the world.

Again though, it was Neds responsibility to make sure that was something his children knew and understood.

A bit harsh? Perhaps, but even at 12 you have to be smarter than she was. Especially when your family plays the game of thrones (even if they dont want to play it).

 

[the smiling weirwood]

They didn't KNOW there was evil all around them! The whole point was that Ned thought that he had ended all that by supporting the Rebellion, and didn't realize the world was just the same until too late. It was this fantasy world of denial that he and Robert were living in that started the whole mess.

 

[Queen Cersei]

*shrugs* Think what you like, but I've been a 12/13 year old and only 3/4 years on, I still wouldn't have a clue what to do in the game of thrones. Young girls don't. And you can't blame Ned for not being able to play it well either. Sounds hard. Sansa's had a crap life, I'm sure she regrets more than anyone what she did but you gotta accept she thought she was doing good for her family, her father, so don't have a go at her for being a back stabber to her family!!!!

 

[the smiling weirwood]

Exactly!

 

[Koopa]

this has nothing to do with the game of thrones per se, even if they where not playing that game, what she did given what we know is loathsome.

And when did she thought she was doing good for her father? If you mean the mercy part, that was long after the dice where rolled

 

[Boaz]

[Edit: I just read this post. Let me start with this caveat... Queen Cersei, this is not meant as a personal attack on you. The concepts of irresponsibility and victimization just seemed to be summed up well in your posts. I do not mean to flame you, but I do want to clarify my feelings on Sansa's life, her actions, and the consequences of those actions.]

if Joffrey hadn't been such an insufferable twat.

Does that mean the same thing in England as it does in America? [Edit: This is meant in jest... I mean it's not like I've ever mispelled/misspelled (I can't even spell that correctly) a word before.

she'll turn into a paranoid wreck, so give her a break...

Aerys II was a paranoid wreck who murdered many men; who murdered Sansa's grandfather and uncle; who allowed Sansa's aunt to be kidnapped and raped by his son; who planned to blow up his capital rather than surrendur it; and who raped his own wife.

Should we give Aerys a break?

Lysa Tully was a paranoid wreck who still breast fed her son of eight, who murdered her husband; who, as Lady of the Vale, possessed not a sense of justice but of exedient murder (remember Tyrion); who deluded herself that Baelish loved her since childhood; who threatened her own sister's life; who drove away her uncle; who kept the Vale out of The War of the Five Kings which led to the deaths of her sister, her brother in-law, and her nephew; and who attempted to murder Sansa.

Should we give Lysa a break?

Ser Emmon (It's my castle!) Frey, Aeron Damphair, Victarion, Stannis, Arianne, Lancel Lannister, and Sam are all candidates for paranoia before this story is over.

Who should we blame?

Joffrey was a total wreck as a human being. Should we give him a break by blaming his mother, both his fathers, and his grandfather?

Back to Sansa.

Did her parents indulge her fantasies? Absolutely. And being at the center and the core of Robert's Rebellion, you'd think that Eddard and Catelyn would have known better. Her father (I never liked Ned) surprised me that he lived as long as he did... once his powerful protectors (Jon Arryn and Robert Baratheon) both died, Ned was in jail within an hour. Regarding Catelyn, well most of you have read my diatribes on her... and if you have not here it is. http://www.chronicles-network.com/forum/8634-dont-hate-cat-3.html

Now, do I hate Sansa? No. She's shaping up nicely as a character... she's got more potential than probably anyone, except Gendry. But I think that people need to be held responsible for their own actions... letting Sansa off the hook only keeps her from learning from the situation. If she's given a break, then she is crippled as a player in AGOT.

Now, I'm not blaming her for Ned's death. Joffrey is to blame. She gave Cersei the weapon to arrest her father, albeit unwittingly. Sansa gave Joffrey the weapon to kill her father, again unwittingly. She needs to learn from these experiences that treachery is real. She needs to learn that people will commit evil for their own gain. She needs to learn not to blame herself for her father's death, but to realize how she was used so that a similar situation will not happen again. But if Sansa refuses to learn, if she becomes a paranoid wreck, then she only has herself to blame. Yes, she has had a horrible life, but so have many other people.

 

[the smiling weirwood]

who allowed Sansa's aunt to be kidnapped and raped by his son

We don't know that's what happened for sure. It's very probable, but unsubstantiated as it comes from Robert, who aside from being obssessive and delusional concerning Lyanna, was a drunken ass.

 

[Boaz]

tsw, with all due respect. We also don't know that Robb is dead... we are just taking the word of the Freys. We also don't know that Gregor is dead... we are just taking the word of Cersei. We also don't know that Loras is injured... we are just taking the word of Lord Waters. We also don't know that Dany was born in a storm... we are just taking her word on it. We also don't know that Hodor is not pretending to be an idiot... we are just taking his word on it. You also don't know that I am not a jerk... you just have to take my word for it.

 

[the smiling weirwood]

I don't.

 

[the smiling weirwood]

I'm quite upset.

We also don't know that Robb is dead... we are just taking the word of the Freys. We also don't know that Gregor is dead... we are just taking the word of Cersei. We also don't know that Loras is injured... we are just taking the word of Lord Waters. We also don't know that Dany was born in a storm... we are just taking her word on it. We also don't know that Hodor is not pretending to be an idiot... we are just taking his word on it. You also don't know that I am not a jerk... you just have to take my word for it.

Those are all facts.

Lyanna's rape is hearsay, from an unreliable source. The only one to ever state that Lyanna was raped is Robert. We also heard that Sansa can change into a flying wolf and that Renly often comes back as a ghost to fight injustice. These seem slightly less believable than the posssibility the relationship between Rhaegar and Lyanna involved something other than rape, but we heard it from a character's mouth, so I suppose we should believe them.

You might also be advised to actually read my post, wherein I said that Robert's statements were probable but not fact. This might have sounded rather confusing. Perhaps what I should have said is something like this:

"I think Tyrion and Hot Pie are ******* Targaryens and they kill Dany and take the dragons and find out the Others are actually being controlled by Varys who is also a Targaryen and then the three of them ride dragons and burn people like Catelyn and Sansa who die, and then they take over the whole world and it turns out Arya is a Targaryen and so is Jon so they get married and rule the Wall which now defends against Lannisters because they and the Wildlings switched places."

-Perhaps that would more accurately convey my thoughts.

I might also point out that there are a great many possibilities left open in the series which have not been completely confirmed or denied, many of which some(yourself included) often take advantage of to generate wildly speculative theories. I might also point out that things appearing differently than they really are, especially within individuals' questionable perceptions of reality, seems to be a major theme in the series.

 

[Raven]

And I dont solely blame Sansa (though I do loathe character regardless of what she does from this point forward for turning her back on her FAMILY!!).

Regardless of anything else though, you dont turn your back on your family and if you do you get what you deserve.

There can be no excuse for not sticking to your blood kin, especially for one of her age and obvious ignorance of the world.

Guys, I don't know about you, but when I was 13, I did not in fact consider 'family' to be sacred.

In fact, I thought my family were the biggest assholes in the world. And they had done their best for me, they didn't beat me or neglect me - quite the opposite. They did all they could for me, made sacrifices, did whatever they could for the sake of what they thought was best for me.

I ran away, several times, I had bitter shouting matches with them, over such 'vital' issues as whether my privacy was being respected or whether I could stay out until 10pm instead of 9pm, and I was totally convinced that they did things just to spite me or because they preferred my siblings.

The problem was, I didn't agree with what their idea of what was 'best for me'. And I would say that 90% of 13-year-olds are probably the same. They do not have the maturity and empathy and patience to say, 'I don't agree with what my parents think is best for me - but I'll accept that they have the right to decide'.

Nor did I have the self-awareness to realise that I was ignorant of the world. I thought I knew better than my parents, who were after all boring, cautious, dull, and old.

Sansa's reaction is maybe not admirable, but it is exactly what you would expect of a girl that age who is given all her dreams at once, only to have them taken away from her suddenly and unexpectedly, apparently at the whim of her parent. (Ned never bothered to talk it through or explain it, remember, just abruptly informed her she was going home without explanation.)

ETA - and I think it is fair to point out that 'family' has now become important to Sansa (see the snow-WF scene) and will probably become more so...

 

[Queen Cersei]

[Edit: I just read this post. Let me start with this caveat... Queen Cersei, this is not meant as a personal attack on you. The concepts of irresponsibility and victimization just seemed to be summed up well in your posts. I do not mean to flame you, but I do want to clarify my feelings on Sansa's life, her actions, and the consequences of those actions.]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Queen Cersei
if Joffrey hadn't been such an insufferable twat.

Does that mean the same thing in England as it does in America? [Edit: This is meant in jest... I mean it's not like I've ever mispelled/misspelled (I can't even spell that correctly) a word before.

dude, don't worry, they're just opinions. and twat does mean the same thing, but over here it's used as a kinda throw-around small insult, like idiot, or crap or something. Sorry if I offended anyone...

I'm too lazy, and you know way more about the books than me (I have only just started reading them for the scond time) and I also see that no one is going to change anyone else's opinion on Sansa, since we're all stubborn. So my advice is, we agree to disagree. I used to hate Sansa, until I got to clash of kings and realised 'awww, bless her', so I can understand how you feel, but I won't be going back there myself.

Good day, happy debating.

 

[Queen Cersei]

Guys, I don't know about you, but when I was 13, I did not in fact consider 'family' to be sacred.

In fact, I thought my family were the biggest assholes in the world. And they had done their best for me, they didn't beat me or neglect me - quite the opposite. They did all they could for me, made sacrifices, did whatever they could for the sake of what they thought was best for me.

I ran away, several times, I had bitter shouting matches with them, over such 'vital' issues as whether my privacy was being respected or whether I could stay out until 10pm instead of 9pm, and I was totally convinced that they did things just to spite me or because they preferred my siblings.

The problem was, I didn't agree with what their idea of what was 'best for me'. And I would say that 90% of 13-year-olds are probably the same. They do not have the maturity and empathy and patience to say, 'I don't agree with what my parents think is best for me - but I'll accept that they have the right to decide'.

Nor did I have the self-awareness to realise that I was ignorant of the world. I thought I knew better than my parents, who were after all boring, cautious, dull, and old.

Sansa's reaction is maybe not admirable, but it is exactly what you would expect of a girl that age who is given all her dreams at once, only to have them taken away from her suddenly and unexpectedly, apparently at the whim of her parent. (Ned never bothered to talk it through or explain it, remember, just abruptly informed her she was going home without explanation.)

ETA - and I think it is fair to point out that 'family' has now become important to Sansa (see the snow-WF scene) and will probably become more so...

I do, however, wholly agree with this, having been there, and in some aspects, still like that with my family. I don't know who's a girl and who isn't here, but it is usually worse on girls, who are more stubborn, and tend to be more emotional. I still have moments of 'oh my goodness i wish i had better parents' whereas my brothers have never done that, they're just 'meh, not that big a deal'