What About Sansa?

[Koopa]

indeed it is, for i have 1 brother and two sisters and the only one who regularly has arguments with them is my eldest sister.

Then again perhaps it is because none of us except her are very emotionally outward people, i guess that aspect runs in the family, we dont show much of outward affection for eachother, to be quite honest mushy stuff annoys me, i mean in the movies and in all those series they all have deep inside talks about their feelings, well i rather sit upon a pin cushion for hours in a row before i have one of those in real life, even so i cannot even imagine if anyone at all in real life would talk so endlessly over their emotions as they do in all those damned highschool series. For one thing it is all so bloody boring, all he characters are always too serious, and the few jokes or comical aspects in them are ussually cruel type thingies for when characters go bad.
Also i never really thought about my parents as old, i think about myself as too old for my own good already and dream of being a boy of 6 again

back to topic, sansa is dutiful, and even if she werent she is 13 and even the most difficult 13 year olds dont run away for more then a few days tops from their families, 15 year olds and older yes but not 13 year old ones, even so sansa it not a difficult child so what she did was very uncharasteristic.Even more when you realise that the book is set in a medieval setting it is even more difficult (cause she is nobility and even the "lesser folk " honoured their parents, even though the lesser folk where often deemed almost as good as adults then)

 

[Queen Cersei]

she did have rather a fanciful thought about how life should be, and her family didn't seem (in her eyes) to be providing that for her, so she jsut turned all spoilt brat for a bit and then realised '*****, there are more important things'. and cor blimey guv'nor, has SHE learnt her lesson (a point im really trying to stress)

 

[Aegon the Unworthy]

We're forgetting that at the time of Sansa's running to Cersei, the following two things had happened....1) Jaime killed Neds men and injured her father (which she knew about) and 2) Catelyn had captured Tyrion...

Regardless what you're feelings on the sancrosanct nature of family, the girl did run to tattle on her father to the sister of the man that killed most of her families friends.....thats a betrayal in my book.

Then when you factor in the accelerated life expectancy (assumption by me) of that day and age....most women were married or betrothed around 13...Sansa should have been more emotionally developed that our own contemporaries, so thats not really a sound argument.

Truth is, to me Sansa is Jaime...their arc is similar. They believe Knights and Ladies behave a certain way...commit an act of betrayal or evil...then get a few POV chapters and the reader forgets their one specific non-forgivable act. I think Sansa is on the way to redemption, she's going to fight the good fight in the end....most of ya have giving Jaime a free pass....do the same for Sansa.

 

[genisis2]

AtU Not only do I agree that Sansa is on the way to redemption but I think its going to be done through Littlefinger. I dont know how but she's going to screw him good figuratively speaking. I hope.

 

[Boaz]

Before I get to Sansa, let me comment on a couple of current issues in this thread.

twat does mean the same thing, but over here it's used as a kinda throw-around small insult, like idiot, or crap or something.

Maybe it does not mean the same thing... In the States, "twat" is a crass term referring to a part of the female anatomy.

tsw, Personally, I tend to agree with the "Rhaegar and Lyanna elopement" theory. But in the development of ASOIAF, it is still very much conjecture. The common thought, in my opinion, among nobility and commoners (any of them interested in Rhaegar and the rebellion, that is) is that Lyanna was abducted by Rhaegar.

Robert'w words say kidnapping. Ned's memory of Brandon riding to KL when he heard of Lyanna's abduction also confirms abduction. Ned's memories of Lyanna on her deathbed seem could be read either way. But Barristan's and Jaime's memories of Rhaegar seem at odds with kidnapping.

But we have to guess all of this because we did not actually "witness" the events in question.

Now, did we actually see Robb die? Yes, we did. We "witnessed" his death. I was wrong... I thought he was left grieviously, if not mortally, wounded at The Twins. Ahhhh, my memory for Martin is not the same as it is for Tolkien.

But we did not see Gregor die. We were told this by whom... Qyburn and Cersei, iirc. We did not see Loras injured, we are told this by Aurane Waters. We did not see Dany born in a storm, Dany learned this from Viserys.

Qyburn, Cersei, The ******* of Driftmark, and Viserys... hmmmm. Are they trustworthy? How can we just accept their word and not Robert's? And I just mentioned all that other stuff for the sake of discussion... why is Robert such an unreliable witness? Being drunk... not when he was young... or maybe he was. Being delusional about a girl... maybe. Being obsessive about a girl... probably. Obsessive, delusional and drunk... isn't that why Tyrion said he liked Robert so much? Why is Robert's memory so suspect but Ned's is not?

Now we did see Renly die... we read how his ghost saved KL... and we later found out that Garlan Tyrell was the ghost If the Tyrells knew that Renly's Ghost actually fought for them, I doubt they'd have the nerve to be the next ones to make the ghost mad by stealing it's glory. As to Sansa flying, we have many chapters from Sansa's point of view (I'd dare say between twenty and twenty-five) and she never flies, iirc... couple this with the facts that she seemed genuinely terrified of being flung out the Moon Door and that no one else in the Seven Kingdoms seems to fly and I reach the conclusion that Sansa does not fly. Now if she'd had her father get her a flying master...

there are a great many possibilities left open in the series which have not been completely confirmed or denied, many of which some(yourself included) often take advantage of to generate wildly speculative theories.

Guilty as charged.

And there are "a great many possibilities" for the story. Jon may be a red herring. Who knows?

People are people, well written people are hopefully depicted faithfully as fully human. Sansa is a child and she's made mistakes. She did not want to make those mistakes. But she was in a position where mistakes could be used by her family's enemies to hurt the Starks.

And as to Sansa's character development, she is on a parallel path with Jaime, Brienne, and Sandor (if he's still alive). They are all growing. They are all waking up to the realities of life around them. Childhood experiences had led them all to see the world through tinted glasses (I won't say rose, because Sandor's childhood seems fairly nasty). But they are all realizing that they now have a choice about being proactive about their own futures. I think this is a real human condition and I enjoy the way Martin is depicting these characters through their awakenings.

 

[the smiling weirwood]

But we did not see Gregor die. We were told this by whom... Qyburn and Cersei, iirc. We did not see Loras injured, we are told this by Aurane Waters. We did not see Dany born in a storm, Dany learned this from Viserys.

Then why did you oppose my statement the Lyanna's rape was conjecture as well?

Qyburn, Cersei, The ******* of Driftmark, and Viserys... hmmmm. Are they trustworthy? How can we just accept their word and not Robert's? And I just mentioned all that other stuff for the sake of discussion... why is Robert such an unreliable witness? Being drunk... not when he was young... or maybe he was. Being delusional about a girl... maybe. Being obsessive about a girl... probably. Obsessive, delusional and drunk... isn't that why Tyrion said he liked Robert so much? Why is Robert's memory so suspect but Ned's is not?

Robert is suspect mostly because of what is revealed about him in first Ned's and much later in Cersei's POVs. Ned first notices a difference in Robert when Sansa's wolf is murdered. Robert is clearly unwilling to deal with tough issues, or more accurately is unwilling to deal with any unpleasantness at all. The conclusion that Robert lives in a self-gratifying world of denial is bolstered by his poor fiscal management and his ignorance that his actions have consequences for other people, if not himself. He is, or was, the epitome of The Knights of Summer. He didn't know or care about money, he just wanted epic tourneys and parties that rivaled those of his idealized youth. His deflowerment of his brother's wife's sister on Stannis' wedding night illustrates that he didn't particularly care about others. This also feeds into his obssession with Lyanna. He clearly has an image of her as the ideal woman. This is made apparent on his visit to the Stark crypts when he remarks that the statue of Lyanna is not as beautiful as she was, when I am sure that it was a fairly accurate portrayal, she was after all the beloved daughter of a major Lord and no expense would have been spared. I think Robert's philandering was caused by his desire to find a woman to rival his image of Lyanna. He was obssessed with her, as further illustrated by his outburst on his wedding night with Cersei. He was in love with Lyanna and in his world that meant that if Lyanna was with Rhaegar it must be rape. He simply couldn't take it if it was otherwise.

Ned is less suspect(in this instance at least) because he loved Lyanna for who she was, not what he thought her to be. However, his world view was no less convulted, but in a far less selfish way. He was just like Sansa, actually. He believed the world and everyone in it was honorable, like he was. This was his downfall. And I am very glad Sansa is starting to see past this, or it surely would have been hers as well, and it almost was.

 

[Raven]

We're forgetting that at the time of Sansa's running to Cersei, the following two things had happened....1) Jaime killed Neds men and injured her father (which she knew about) and 2) Catelyn had captured Tyrion...

... which she did not know about, so how is it relevant?

As for the Jaime/Ned fight, it's true that Sansa knew about it and that Jaime had killed Jory, someone she knew and liked. But Jaime had fled, the King had made peace, and her father had stayed. Also, I have no doubt that Sansa had heard other versions of the story.

And I don't really see why she should have distrusted Cersei because Jaime had killed someone... it's easy for us to say she should have, because we know what Cersei is like. She didn't.

Then when you factor in the accelerated life expectancy (assumption by me) of that day and age....most women were married or betrothed around 13...Sansa should have been more emotionally developed that our own contemporaries, so thats not really a sound argument.

No, I agree. Your argument here is not really a sound one. So why advance it?

It depends on an assumption which you don't really have any reason to make, that 13-year-olds in Westeros are typically more mature than in the real world - and even if this is true, others have asserted that Sansa's behaviour would not be out of place in a modern 16-year-old, so it doesn't really prove anything!

Truth is, to me Sansa is Jaime...their arc is similar. They believe Knights and Ladies behave a certain way...commit an act of betrayal or evil...then get a few POV chapters and the reader forgets their one specific non-forgivable act. I think Sansa is on the way to redemption, she's going to fight the good fight in the end....most of ya have giving Jaime a free pass....do the same for Sansa.

I haven't given Jaime a free pass, not at all. But comparing Sansa's running to Cersei to Jaime throwing Bran out of a window is like comparing a butter knife to a greatsword.

ps - it's noteworthy that I can't recall a single person other than Robert mentioning the 'rape' story. Apparently, 'the singers' sing about Robert and Rhaegar fighting for the woman 'they both loved', for example: this doesn't sound like the rape story is widely accepted.

 

[the smiling weirwood]

ps - it's noteworthy that I can't recall a single person other than Robert mentioning the 'rape' story. Apparently, 'the singers' sing about Robert and Rhaegar fighting for the woman 'they both loved', for example: this doesn't sound like the rape story is widely accepted.

I'm glad I wasn't just inventing things!

 

[Queen Cersei]

Maybe it does not mean the same thing... In the States, "twat" is a crass term referring to a part of the female anatomy.

Means the same. But it's used in a carefree way. No one thinks about it like that.

 

[Aegon the Unworthy]

... which she did not know about, so how is it relevant?

As for the Jaime/Ned fight, it's true that Sansa knew about it and that Jaime had killed Jory, someone she knew and liked. But Jaime had fled, the King had made peace, and her father had stayed. Also, I have no doubt that Sansa had heard other versions of the story.

Sigh....I hate using quotes and parsing all that crap....and yet here I am.

First and foremost, I am from a family where the whole blood is thicker than water actually applies. So in my eyes, what most seems to feel is a minor transgression looms a bit larger in my eyes.

Now to rebutt....lets suppose Sansa heard the story of Neds injury and his butchered guards...the Starks were a close community so she knew all their names and all their families, and she heard a bunch of different versions from others...who should she believe? Seriously? Which side...the other house guards she's known her whole life, or the ones she met yesterday?

Oh yes, and Jaime is not Cersei is a valid statement. I couldnt agree more, its just something to ponder, as in "I know the brother of the Queen just ordered his men to kill several of my family friends and injured my dad, and the queen hasnt done anything about it." I think this is where the preponderence of evidence reaches the point where we can say Sansa is not naive...she is stupid. Not malicious...just stupid at this point in the story.

It depends on an assumption which you don't really have any reason to make, that 13-year-olds in Westeros are typically more mature than in the real world - and even if this is true, others have asserted that Sansa's behaviour would not be out of place in a modern 16-year-old, so it doesn't really prove anything!

Ill admit this one I didnt explain well. Hmm let me see if I can explain it better. Certain non-stupid actions are expected of us as adults. Sansa is expected to be an adult at this time. Not that she is, she's expected. I dont care what reasons were playing in her own head, thats really not germane to the expectations of a young adult. Its a societal imposed idea that non-stupid people arent supposed to do stupid things. Its not always true but there ya go...Its all about the point of view, I dont expect a grown woman to be this dumb...the fact that she is doesnt bear at all on my (and by natural illogical extension) and others perception that her actions were wrong.

I haven't given Jaime a free pass, not at all. But comparing Sansa's running to Cersei to Jaime throwing Bran out of a window is like comparing a butter knife to a greatsword.

Okay...by you I didnt mean specifically Raven....just for the record. From now on when I use the plural form of you I will add (except Raven). However I have read several "We love Jaime" threads on this board and Im the only one I remember pointing Jaime is an evil evil bastich that cast an 8 year old boy out a window so he could continue making the oh so sweet love to his sister. I dont have telepathy so I have not been able to determine youre opinions on the subject (or for that matter the interest in doing so).

Truth is, to me Sansa is Jaime...their arc is similar. They believe Knights and Ladies behave a certain way...commit an act of betrayal or evil...then get a few POV chapters and the reader forgets their one specific non-forgivable act. I think Sansa is on the way to redemption, she's going to fight the good fight in the end....most of ya have giving Jaime a free pass....do the same for Sansa.--Aegon

Im actually defending Sansa here...why would anyone think I was directly comparing them. I mean maybe if you only read the first line...I could see it. You did read more than the first and the last line right? An act of betrayal is an act of betrayal regardless of the intentions. Here i thought I was defending Sansa at this point.

So confused

--Aegon

 

[Raven]

First and foremost, I am from a family where the whole blood is thicker than water actually applies. So in my eyes, what most seems to feel is a minor transgression looms a bit larger in my eyes.

Yeah, that's a good thing. But people vary, even within families... GRRM himself has said as much in regards to the Lannisters, for example.

So while many of the Starks (at the beginning of AGOT) valued family above others, Sansa did not.

Now, you're saying that is a bad thing in itself, and makes her betrayal worse in your eyes. That's fine. But I'm saying, it's something that many of us were guilty of at her age. It's normal behaviour, something we might expect.

Which brings us to expectations. You say your expectations of Sansa are higher than they would be of a modern girl her age. Again, fine, but your expectations are your own, and bear only on your reaction. They don't really advance the discussion outside of that, and they don't have any relevance to understanding the situation.

This is probably where we differ - I tend to try to understand characters' motivations and understanding and judge them on those, you seem more concerned with judging them on how their actions meet your expectations of them. I would argue, though, that your expectations ought to be set, not by your experiences and beliefs, but by theirs. Judging everyone by your own standards is futile, since people are different.

Now to rebutt....lets suppose Sansa heard the story of Neds injury and his butchered guards...the Starks were a close community so she knew all their names and all their families, and she heard a bunch of different versions from others...who should she believe? Seriously? Which side...the other house guards she's known her whole life, or the ones she met yesterday?

You do have a good point about the deaths of Jory and the others, let me state that right off.

However, my point was that Sansa has two versions of the story, and one is coming from someone she desperately wants to believe - Joff. You can imagine him ranting about the fight, blaming it all on Ned... it's a similar situation to the Arya/Joff argument - she doesn't have the strength to take sides.

Is that a fault? Yeah, she's weak. But I don't condemn people for being weak... and she's getting stronger, on that we agree.

Ill admit this one I didnt explain well. Hmm let me see if I can explain it better. Certain non-stupid actions are expected of us as adults. Sansa is expected to be an adult at this time. Not that she is, she's expected. I dont care what reasons were playing in her own head, thats really not germane to the expectations of a young adult. Its a societal imposed idea that non-stupid people arent supposed to do stupid things. Its not always true but there ya go...Its all about the point of view, I dont expect a grown woman to be this dumb...the fact that she is doesnt bear at all on my (and by natural illogical extension) and others perception that her actions were wrong.

See, you're kind of all over the place here: you admit she isn't a grown woman, but you want to judge her as one. How is that reasonable?

 

[AryaUnderfoot]

Man... you drop in, say something, leave for a couple of days, and suddenly there are several more pages of arguments to read. Not fair. I don't have the brain capacity to take it all in at once like that, guys!

Anyway, I'm just going to sum up my thoughts here again:

Someone earlier stated that it was completely unfair to compare the mind of a 13-year-old in a Medieval setting to current "Myspace teeny-boppers" - my term, not theirs.

I couldn't agree more. 13-year-old girls in this day and age are, for all parts and purposes, more highly educated than most grown men from "back then." Sansa, far removed from current affairs, current trends, and the hustle and bustle of society which would have probably trained her mind not to judge a book by its cover- well, it's no wonder she's got warped views. Think of it this way: she was raised by an honorable, straightforward, orderly man in a place where the bad guys were always punished and the wholesome people were rewarded. If she had grown up in King's Landing, well... that's pretty much the difference between Kansas and New York City. One's worldview will be very stunted when one is usually only exposed to the ideal. I know- I grew up in a similar situation. Until you've experienced it for yourself, you don't expect people to not be trustworthy. Cowards and liars and cheats, no matter how prevalent they are Sansa's stories, did not have a huge presence in her childhood. And unlike today's teens, she wasn't raised to not take candy from strangers, to distrust grownups because they might have hidden basements full of child porn. FOX news wasn't exactly part of the daily routine at Winterfell. She expected her life to follow that of her parents- a match that turned into one of love, between two good, beautiful people who managed to put tragedy behind them. Not realistic, no- but not her fault, either.

 

[Trey Greyjoy]

Just to throw my nickle into the pool....

I feel that Im really going to enjoy watching her grow and mature through this series. At least, its my impression that GRRM has broken her down to build her back up again into something much much stronger. This process should prove fascinating to witness.
Its not entirely unlike the feeling I have concerning Jaime.

 

[the smiling weirwood]

I really don't see how anyone could think of anything about Sansa/her family/a bunch of other stuff that hasn't already been said on this thread. I vote we stop talking about it because it's making me sick.

 

[Trey Greyjoy]

Ok, then lets all post Gregor Clegane speculation to the thread.



So....what does Gregor think about Sansa???

 

[red_temple]

So....what does Gregor think about Sansa???

Other than dashing her head against a wall?

 

[Trey Greyjoy]

Hmmm, you never know. Could be a "beauty and the beast" situation. Sansa could charm him into being a kindler, gentler Clegane.

 

[red_temple]

Yeah, but there's nothing like a good head-dashing.

 

[Trey Greyjoy]

Agreed, but the G + S = W (Gregor + Sansa = Wall ) theory has been played out on other forums. Dont you think thats a bit TOO obvious for GRRM??

 

[the smiling weirwood]

No. she represents a weakness in him. She must be destroyed and the weakness expunged. He cannot destroy his brother if he is weak.