What About Sansa?

Raven said:
Yeah, that's a good thing. But people vary, even within families... GRRM himself has said as much in regards to the Lannisters, for example.

So while many of the Starks (at the beginning of AGOT) valued family above others, Sansa did not.

Now, you're saying that is a bad thing in itself, and makes her betrayal worse in your eyes. That's fine. But I'm saying, it's something that many of us were guilty of at her age. It's normal behaviour, something we might expect.

Which brings us to expectations. You say your expectations of Sansa are higher than they would be of a modern girl her age. Again, fine, but your expectations are your own, and bear only on your reaction. They don't really advance the discussion outside of that, and they don't have any relevance to understanding the situation.

This is probably where we differ - I tend to try to understand characters' motivations and understanding and judge them on those, you seem more concerned with judging them on how their actions meet your expectations of them. I would argue, though, that your expectations ought to be set, not by your experiences and beliefs, but by theirs. Judging everyone by your own standards is futile, since people are different.



You do have a good point about the deaths of Jory and the others, let me state that right off.

However, my point was that Sansa has two versions of the story, and one is coming from someone she desperately wants to believe - Joff. You can imagine him ranting about the fight, blaming it all on Ned... it's a similar situation to the Arya/Joff argument - she doesn't have the strength to take sides.

Is that a fault? Yeah, she's weak. But I don't condemn people for being weak... and she's getting stronger, on that we agree. :)



See, you're kind of all over the place here: you admit she isn't a grown woman, but you want to judge her as one. How is that reasonable?
Click to expand...

All of this you wrote comes down to two things....You're excusing Sansa's actions based on her own failings and strengths, Im acknowledging them and saying it doesnt matter, she still betrayed her father. A betrayal is still a betrayal, the reasons only mitigate the punishment.

See there ya go...our argument is stated succinctly...no more reason to post.
 
There are some people in this series i will always dislike, for instance the Lannister twins, one of them is sansa. It has been said that sansa doesn't value so much and i guess in a way thats through, you see sansa somehow got it in her stupid insipid little mind that Arya was responsible for Lady's death while in many many more ways it clearly is cersei's, yet what does she do, she runs to cersei, imagine that
 
I think Sansa being Alayne has had a drmatic impact on her view of the world and she will play an important part in the end. If not, then maybe Arya the Faceless Man will kill her. I tend not to judge Sansa too harshly since I remember being young and somewhat naive a long time ago. And yes, I too made mistakes.
 
Yeah i mean when we where young we made mistakes, but now we are flawless !!! LOLZ

Fatality. Flawless Victory Sorry couldn't help myself
 
Wow! Went away for 2 weeks and this thread's 5 pages longer! I guess it was interesting.
I've got a lot of reading to do to catch up on the subject. New writers, new opinions.

Just to state my position clearly from the new-start: Death to Sansa (unless she turns into a Cersei), Death to Cersei (not you Queenie), All Hail Margaery! (with grandma running things from behind).
 
Margaery is the Frey(the one in the stables)-act-a-like-horlet who screwes a multitude of men right?

She can't hold power that is clear
 
horlet? That's a new one for me.

And I think you confuse yourself between Margaery and Cersei. There is no proof that Margaery "screwed" around with a multitude of men. In fact, she always seemed to rebuff most advances. And if she engineered any of this with the help of the Queen of Thorns and the rest of the roses (by this I mean Joff's murder, her marrying Tommen and getting Cersei out of the way so that she can control Tommen) she deserves alot more credit than most would give her. Cersei on the other hand is the one who cannot rule worth a hill of sh*%$ and "screwes a multitude of men" such as her brother, cousin and the Kettleblacks (and Moonboy for all we know ;) ).
 
Wasn't it implied that she gets visited by a score of men at night, especially since she has lost whatever it is that supposed to prove your virginity.
 
Well I'm sure Margaery's not pure. The question is how many times has she been unpure.:rolleyes:

TK-421, you hit the nail on the head. Margaery and the Roses are succeeding at what the Lion's were trying to do. So far they've gained more for the least amount of effort.

We know that's going to change though. The squids are at the gates in the south, and my girl's locked up and in trouble for one too many Friday-nights out (that's M, not C). :cool:

I say the faith should have a Battle-Royal; let Margaery and Cersei fight it out in a pit. The one who wins becomes Queen. Add mud and it's a pay-per-view event.:eek:
 
Ha!Ha! Too bad Robert had to die as he would thoroughly have enjoyed that sort of a spectacle.

But, alas we degress from that poor fair damsel in distress, Sansa. Will she an army outside of the Vale. She would need to convince many of who she really was first and spoil Littlefinger's plans. Sansa/Alayne will align herself to Dany if Dany attempts to rid Westeros of the Lannisters and their supporters.
 
Cersei made it up, but so far it seems to be holding ground.
 
On Cersei 'making it up': I think she actually believes it's true. Read her chapters and her reflections indicate that if she doesn't actually believe it, she's doing a very good job of maintaining the pretence - even to herself (possibly as a defence mechanism against the horrible things she is doing to prove it).
 
Has Margaery every denied it, i may be mistaken but i dont think she did
 
I'm not entirely sure what I think about Margaery being pure or not, but I think the odds are in her favor as far as her husbands were concerned- Renly (sorry, QC, but even a blind man could see the poofery on display there), Joffrey, who probably wouldn't have known what to do with her, and Tommen is certainly too young. As for the other men who so frequently visit her, it should be noted that she has family around at all times. That could be a plus or minus.
Her maidenhead was supposedly broken by riding horses so frequently.
 
Dont forget the only part of the accusation that Cersei did not make up....Pycelle and the Moon Tea....which points to one of Margies coven being a trifle knowledgable of the opposite sex.

As for family being around...if Martin follows suit its most likely family who is the other half of the equation.
 
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