9th Chevron

[shazstar]

Thanks. hypothesised though. A theory explanation based on current theories.

 

[Neo]

Just about got all that

 

[shazstar]

you mean someone doesn't think i'm nuts after reading that....cool, i feel proud.

 

[Dendarah]

hi, :rolly2: I'm new to ascifi/stargate forum and I was just browsing around seeing what info is on stargate, and this thread caught my attention. The ninth chevron has caught my eye as well as the ideas about time travel and galaxy clusters are all great ideas, but the answer might be more far fetched. Alright I'm gonna get techniqual now so hold on. A possible answer lies in the works of Einstein in his theory of relativity and the great minds after him in quantum physics such as Stephan Hawking. The wormhole idea in the physics community actually takes wormhole travel out of our universe and into others. This theory stems from blackholes (Thought to be the mother of wormholes in theories).

There are two ways the universal wormhole theory could work in Stargate application (1) The ninth chevron is used in a new calculation in which it is able to send the outgoing wormhole into the blackhole (not the event horizon but directly to the blackholes singularity. If the wormhole did successfully get to the singularity without it being forced into the event horizon first, time space would stop the wormhole and the occupance inside would be stretched to the width of thread and in no time at all be sent throught the singularity into another universe. Problem: you would have to be in capsules or in a ship(pushing it I know) because there aren't going to be stargates on the other side you could activate from a universe, that would need another 8 chevrons on the Stargate if a stargate system existed. (2) The ninth chevron is activated and another calculation is made in gravity, speed, and energy in order to cause and infinite gravity, pressure, and temperature to occur taring through the fabric of space as a blackhole but this time the wormhole is the blackhole, and when the wormhole is disengaged no infinite gravity will be sustained and the blackhole will calapse (hopefully). Same restriction would apply with capsules and ships since the same problem would be faced with possibility one as number two dealing with the other side.

This would actually explain some question as stated before the asgard said that the Ancients went far beyond the galaxy (galaxies?) well going to another universe certainly falls into that category. Second it also explains the apparent lack of the Ancients it seems as if they never existed they only built technology to leave behind as a legacy. This could be explained by the fact of the problem with other universes, because universes are being created have been created and are in the process of being created there will be an infinite possiblity for which universe your blackhole connects to, so the Ancients could be trying to find their way back home or maybe they're trying to go back home? I just hope someone gets what I'm saying.

 

[shazstar]

I get you. A very well thought out theory. Do you work in the field or just interested?

 

[Dendarah]

Nope, don't work in the field (yet!). Still studying in high school unfortunately, in a few more months i'll be in university studying the field though.

 

[shazstar]

yeah me too.......R u from the states?

 

[muzungu]

Both of the theories by shazstar and Dendarah are quite thought out, however there are some problems with each of them.

shazstar talks about going back to the point of the big bang, unfortunatley this is slightly missleading, as there is no point in the current universe where the big bang occured. The universe isn't expanding from a single point, rather everything in it is expanding from everything else.

If the first situation Dendarah talks were true then anyone going through the wormhole would be torn apart by tidal gravity fields. If they managed to get 'through' the singularity they would be stuck in the other universe as they would be unable to escape from the singulrity. Dendarahs second idea is more probable. Unfortunatley when the black hole collapsed it would turn all of its mass into both photons and gravitons (ie a big burst of energy and a large gravity wave).

 

[PTeppic]

Not sure if it helps or hinders the arguments, but we know that Ancients-related peoples DID play with time, as shown in the hilarious series 4 episode of time-loops.

 

[shazstar]

Originally posted by Muzungu
shazstar talks about going back to the point of the big bang, unfortunatley this is slightly missleading, as there is no point in the current universe where the big bang occured. The universe isn't expanding from a single point, rather everything in it is expanding from everything else.

hehehehe well though out yeah right that came from pure guesswork based only on HighSchool Physics that I am still learning!

But thanks and yeah i should have realised what i was saying there.


So would the tidal gravity fields still work in consideration that the "wormhole" as such is moving? If it's all relative then any tidal gravity fields present at all could only work one way as in ONE frame of reference, and I would have imagined that THEN it would help direct a wormhole.....

 

[leprykawn]

Re: HI, Desepticon4, Welcome!

Originally posted by the_Brainz
And oh, hey, here's an idea -- maybe the ninth chevron wouldn't make the wormhole jump in time, but since they're spatial coordinates, there's nothing against the ninth and maybe tenth, eleventh and so on chevrons causing the gate jump through different parallel dimensions...just a hopeful thought

I agree with this.

If there were a 9th, 10th, and 11th chevron, and each one represented one out of a possible 39 different alternate realities, that would mean:

9th chevron used for travel between realities: 39^1 = 39 possible alternate universes

10th chevron used for travel between realities: 39^2 = 1521 .....

11th chevron used . . . . . . . . . . . . . . : 39^3 = 59319 .......

Maybe if you dialled the first 8 chevrons as a spacial coordinate, and continued to dial, allowing the 9th , 1st, 2nd, etc, to represent "reality coordinates" this time around, you could potentially reach a great amount of possible spatial coordinates, in ALMOST any reality you wanted.
Think about it: If you raise 39 to the power of (for example) 8, you could encompass over 5 billion alternate realities.

And why stop there? You could continue dialling the 9th,1st,2nd, etc., chevrons, in a modular fashion, and theoritically, you could dial an infinity of possible realities (it would take an awful long time though, 'cos you'd be "encoding" the chevrons hundreds of times to dial up a coordinate in a reality that's very different from our own...).

Edit: When I say "a reality that's VERY different from our own", I'm assuming the following kind of "indexing system":

that the first glyph in the 9th chevron would represent a universe that's almost identical to our own, except for minor differences, and as you increment the glyphs, you get more and more differences in each alternate reality. Finally, if you dial, say, the 9 millionth reality in this scale, you get a universe that's pretty different to ours, and say, the 9 thousandth billionth index could be a completley alien and foreign alternate reality.

Does anyone follow me (I'm not even sure I do...)?

 

[PTeppic]

Re: Re: HI, Desepticon4, Welcome!

Originally posted by leprykawn
Does anyone follow me (I'm not even sure I do...)?

I follow - but have the same question as fort the Reality Mirror already seen that does this - does another gate of this design need to exist at "the other end" as for normal gate travel, or does it a) create one, or b) leave you stranded in the alternate reality?

If it DOES need the gate, then of course you are only left with possible travel to the subset of universes/realities where reality-gates are developed and installed in the places you want to go... (which is pretty close to infinity anyway! )

 

[sg14ever]

Well I don't think it would be used for time travel, The Stargate can already do that with use of out sun.

I don't think it's used for going to other realitys, The quantum mirror can do that.

I think its more a funtion for the gate builders, Sort of a debuging and admining Chevron. So that the gate builders can force the gate to do things its programed to avoid.

Prehapes it's something like that!

 

[leprykawn]

Originally posted by sg14ever
I think its more a funtion for the gate builders, Sort of a debuging and admining Chevron. So that the gate builders can force the gate to do things its programed to avoid.

Kind of like built-in redundancy in case they want to try something experimental in the future. Maybe.

 

[Garron]

Originally posted by muzungu
In order to map a position four measurements need to be made. You can use cartesian, spherical polar, cylidrical polar etc it doesn't matter very much as long as you can fix in space where it is (eg x,y,z) you also need one time coordinate.

Even though only one time coordinate is needed I don't think that the ninth chevron allows the stargate to access other times as its still a constellation glyph. Instead i think that the ninth chevron simply allows you to travel beyond our local cluster of galxies.

Another problem with the time travel aspect is that its possible to go forward or backward in time without using the ninth chevron.

I agree! As we already know, the stargate will allow people to travel backwards and forwards though time with the help of a solar flare. What has me curious is how will the solar flare determine when a party will arrive at the time they choose. Fans have seen in '1969' that the SG team can OVERTRAVEL if they dial in too soon.

I'm just wondering how that concept works.

 

[Dendarah]

That concept only works if the universe is made up of four dimensions, time being the fourth. In the theory of the fourth dimension being time that would mean that it is infinite in both direction, past and future; therefore, if given the right velocity to be able to alter the fourth dimension at the right moment you could theoretically be sent to the future. Only if time is a dimension though and both the past and future go one forever. Without the fourth dimension you could never be able to go back in time or do anothing time travel related.:rolly2:

 

[leprykawn]

Originally posted by Dendarah
[BIn the theory of the fourth dimension being time that would mean that it is infinite in both direction, past and future; .................... Only if time is a dimension though and both the past and future go one forever. [/B]

But time is does NOT got on forever into the past. There had to be a point in time, where the Big Bang happened. If time went on forever into the past, there would have been no such point, and the universe would not exist, so my theory is that time MAY go on forever into the future ,but not the past.

 

[Dendarah]

The theory has merit, problem is dimensions should not have limitations because they would revert back into nothingness, so that would mean the fourth dimension would abruptly end, infinite in only one direction, (ex, if there isn't enough matter and sufficient gravity being applied both strong and weak the universe will collapse on itself in the 'Big Crunch' theory). The problem with most theories of time stopping is that, the small sub-atomic particle that contained everything (energy)that would create our universe, could have been there for years upon years, but you wouldn't be aware of this, because that small sub-atmoic particle was the only 'space' so in theory you wouldn't exist but something like 'time' would have still been going on, but not within or outside of the particle but on the frontier of the particle. Its a very hard concept and very few scientist think of it but even the big bang theory is theory in reality we don't know how the universe started. I certainly am not bashing the Big Band theory its the best explaination out there, but it doesn't mean its right. Like the problem of the definition of light the universe is very vague as well, who knows there might be an infinite number of dimensions but our capacity to even think about them or comprehend how this could be possible is far from our reach, as light changed shape so will our understanding of the universe in time, most scientist believe in a thousand years what we will know about the universe we would never have imagined in a thousand years. I know this is long and I babbled a lot but once I get going I can't stop. So I apologize if this makes no sense at all while I was writing this it seemed to make sense to me.

 

[shazstar]

Originally posted by Dendarah
That concept only works if the universe is made up of four dimensions, time being the fourth. In the theory of the fourth dimension being time that would mean that it is infinite in both direction, past and future; therefore, if given the right velocity to be able to alter the fourth dimension at the right moment you could theoretically be sent to the future. Only if time is a dimension though and both the past and future go one forever. Without the fourth dimension you could never be able to go back in time or do anothing time travel related.:rolly2:

Thats true, but if you were to travel backwards or forwards in time, then you have to consider Einsteins Theory of Special Relativity, because time itself is altered by relativity.
Time as a fourth dimension is an accepted theory, this is due to the proof of time dilation (For example, the atomic clock experiment, twin paradox theory). So if time is to be considered as a fourth dimension, then really relativity must also be considered in the issue of time travel. Anybody who has seen the episode "A Matter of Time" will remember the increasing rate of time dilation as the wormhole remained open on Earth and on P3W-451. A few seconds on the planet was hours on Earth. In another example, the twin paradox, a twin baby is sent in a ship away from the earth while its other twin remains on earth. As the twin on the ship reaches the age of 40 relative to his frame of reference (that is clocks and ageing processes), his twin on Earth reaches the age of 60. And the thought processes are vice versa. According to each twin, the other will age more slowly. Remembering that the theory of Special relativity only accounts for internal frames of reference they cannot both be correct. it is however, proven that the twin on the ship has aged more slowly, according to relative velocities. at faster velocities, time elapses more slowly, and so the twin on the ship will be younger in proportion to the time on earth and velocities.

Still with me? Don't worry I swear there is a point.....

In reality, Time dilation suggests it maybe possible to travel to other stars in our lifetime. However, suppose you were to travel to a star 100 light years away at 0.999 c ('c' being the constant speed of light), relative to earth. At this speed, just over 100 years will have elapsed according to an observer on earth. However, the person on the ship will have only observed 4. something years, (this is actually the numbers from a textbook, not my bodgy maths). And so it follow that, theoretically, you could travel to a star and back again, (if travel at 0.999c was possible) but centuries would have passed. Therefore, it is possible to travel to the future, but not, the past.

Even in a show like stargate, whereby artificial wormholes completely discard all relative motion and time, time travel is difficult to comprehend, as to the above theories and examples.

My theory is that the gate establishes a wormhole with a velocity high enough to dilate time almost to a standstill. The wormhole dilates time for the travellors, and then, once disengaged, would provide a snap-back effect, thus eliminating the time lapse on earth.

And also (sorry still rambling), Leprykawn, I have a question! If the big bang occurred at a point in time, then wouldn't that discount time as the fourth dimension, therefore making it a universal constant, which couldn't be constant, because of the proof of time dilation?

Sorry if i lost you.

Another thing as well. I said above in my poor attempt at an explanation that time travel can only go into the future not the past. Recently (last few years?) an experiment was conducted by a team of scientists at princeton, and they claimed they had, using lasers passing through cold caesium, produced a group velocity that was 300 times the speed of light. The effect of this is so dramatic that the group velocity becomes negative! This would result in time running backwards, and so there you go, time travel into the past.....

 

[ZeroCool]

I have an idea of what the 8th Chevron is for. Say there were TWO gates in one star system. As we have seen in Solitudes (I think), only one can be used at a time in the same area. Now, perhaps there are TWO gates in the Asgard star system. The eighth Chevron could be used to tell the wormhole how far past the default gate to go, or how much distance in front of the default gate to go. THat way, two gates are accesible in the same star system. Hope this helps!