shu_hunter
Stargate fan[atic]
- Joined
- May 22, 2001
- Messages
- 158
I firmly agree with ZeroCool on this.
~Shu Hunter
:upto: stargate fan{atic}
~Shu Hunter
:upto: stargate fan{atic}
9th Chevron
- Thread starter Desepticon4
- Start date
PTeppic
Reetou Diplomatic Corp
- Joined
- May 31, 2001
- Messages
- 3,337
Proximty due to being in the same star system does not appear to be a defining factor in allowing a stargate to work near another. Rather, the governing factor is the division of stargate-space into discrete regions wherein gates could appear, that is the resolution of the three-dimensional space by the position of the constellations/planets which are represented by the address glyphs.
We know there are c.40 positions in space which are used to define the address, by a simple process of intersection. So, logically, there can only be a finite number of combinations which will yield a valid intersection. Going further, there will be many intersections which will be physically "quite close" on a cosmic scale, say a few hundred million miles, perhaps.
Now, we also now, also from basic astrophysics, that the gate system already has a degree of tolerance in "accuracy" of the intersection - although the glyphs for earth are fixed, its position in space alters by 180 million miles due to orbital and annual rotation etc. Now, this gets worse, because the constellations and planets used to define the intersection are ALSO moving in such a manner!! :dead:
So, we must assume there is a specified tolerance around each "absolute" intersection point, which must be quite large (a few hundred million miles at least). Any time a pair of gates are within that physical distance, they would interact, as for the numerous examples of a second earth gate. But, this is based on physical distance, rather than any specific location such as within a star system.
The converse also holds true: within a sufficiently large star system, two dinstinct addresses could be used that are far enough apart that they produce two locations outside each other's "radius of tolerance" but are still valid. As discussed elsewhere, the point of origin is almost purely symbolic, so can quite easily be different, despite being in the same star system - the two gates on earth have different glyphs for example, though this could be due to wherever the Goa'uld found the second gate before installing it on Earth...
To be honest, thinking about how few glyphs there are, trying to find a SINGLE intersection would be difficult. Imagine spreading forty points about equally around a sphere, and then intersecting three pairs of points so that they intersect within a small volume!
We know there are c.40 positions in space which are used to define the address, by a simple process of intersection. So, logically, there can only be a finite number of combinations which will yield a valid intersection. Going further, there will be many intersections which will be physically "quite close" on a cosmic scale, say a few hundred million miles, perhaps.
Now, we also now, also from basic astrophysics, that the gate system already has a degree of tolerance in "accuracy" of the intersection - although the glyphs for earth are fixed, its position in space alters by 180 million miles due to orbital and annual rotation etc. Now, this gets worse, because the constellations and planets used to define the intersection are ALSO moving in such a manner!! :dead:
So, we must assume there is a specified tolerance around each "absolute" intersection point, which must be quite large (a few hundred million miles at least). Any time a pair of gates are within that physical distance, they would interact, as for the numerous examples of a second earth gate. But, this is based on physical distance, rather than any specific location such as within a star system.
The converse also holds true: within a sufficiently large star system, two dinstinct addresses could be used that are far enough apart that they produce two locations outside each other's "radius of tolerance" but are still valid. As discussed elsewhere, the point of origin is almost purely symbolic, so can quite easily be different, despite being in the same star system - the two gates on earth have different glyphs for example, though this could be due to wherever the Goa'uld found the second gate before installing it on Earth...
To be honest, thinking about how few glyphs there are, trying to find a SINGLE intersection would be difficult. Imagine spreading forty points about equally around a sphere, and then intersecting three pairs of points so that they intersect within a small volume!
Ah so this is where your Maths genius's thread comes from! I am gonna go buy a cheap globe from the reject shop tomorrow and try it. 
The theory of "Gate tolerance" is good, but I have to wonder how the wormhole would redirect in transit to a planetary new position, a position that may be 200 million miles indifferent!
So after thinking about this, I came to a shaky and not yet substantiated theory of magnetism being a direct cause for this effect.
And while thinking out this theory, I came across yet another questuion that I have always assumed constant, in regard to the gates matter stream.
Is the medium for wormhole transit light propagation? (I'm thinking if it is it must be enhanced a hell of alot to produce an absolute value velocity that would enable them to travel at speeds way beyond the speed of light.) Or is there another entirely different and as yet unexplained propaganda that acts as the medium for gate travel? Does everyone get me, or am I speaking nonsense?
If the wormhole uses light to transport matter, than it is an electromagnetic wave, and so when planetary shifts occur (of HUGE proportions) than perhaps a magnetic atrraction occurs to redirect the wormhole towards its new position.
And, thinking of this leads me again to YET another question! Assuming this theory is feasible, than perhaps this accounts for certain positioning of the gates on planets?
Any ideas on that?
The theory of "Gate tolerance" is good, but I have to wonder how the wormhole would redirect in transit to a planetary new position, a position that may be 200 million miles indifferent!
So after thinking about this, I came to a shaky and not yet substantiated theory of magnetism being a direct cause for this effect.
And while thinking out this theory, I came across yet another questuion that I have always assumed constant, in regard to the gates matter stream.
Is the medium for wormhole transit light propagation? (I'm thinking if it is it must be enhanced a hell of alot to produce an absolute value velocity that would enable them to travel at speeds way beyond the speed of light.) Or is there another entirely different and as yet unexplained propaganda that acts as the medium for gate travel? Does everyone get me, or am I speaking nonsense?
If the wormhole uses light to transport matter, than it is an electromagnetic wave, and so when planetary shifts occur (of HUGE proportions) than perhaps a magnetic atrraction occurs to redirect the wormhole towards its new position.
And, thinking of this leads me again to YET another question! Assuming this theory is feasible, than perhaps this accounts for certain positioning of the gates on planets?
Any ideas on that?
Originally posted by shazstar
And also (sorry still rambling), Leprykawn, I have a question! If the big bang occurred at a point in time, then wouldn't that discount time as the fourth dimension, therefore making it a universal constant, which couldn't be constant, because of the proof of time dilation?
Sorry if i lost you.
Um, you sort if lost me, with the timne dilation bit -> I'll have to look back at my first year Maths. Physics notes
:eek7: !!!I was trying to assume that t = 0 would be the start of the universe as it is today (the Big Bang), but I dunno, maybe there was a weird universe (as Dendarah explained) before our current universe -> that could make time go from negative infinity to positive infinity, instead of just zero to positive infinity.
ok... sorry if i breack the chain of though here....
ok we know that the 8th symbol extends the radius of teh gate system.... but one thing you've forgotten is that it may be designed so that its range is limited to the 39 closest galexies.... so that would mean that you've got this...
x1, x2, y1, y2, z1, z2, and the origin as the base sets for our galexy (each galexy that had there own stargate system would have all of these, only different symbols)
then you have the 8th chevron for the next 39 closest galexies....
so to recap what has been said we have the...
-time theory
-big bang time theory
-multiply universe idea
and...
- the distance theory
so with that i'm going to add one of my own....
consivably for a 9th chevron to work we would need DHD, becasue they can add any amount of power that they want so you would just have to press 9 chevrons instead of 8 or 7. So then if you had that locked in and the gate allowed you to start it up... then concevable it would work... then the fun begins... lets call the 8th and 9th, a and b.... now when you dial a planet you have to have the coridnates of the planet with the factor of a in it.... now a could represent a multiplication of the coridinates of 2. so that increases the consevable distance to 2, and then lets say it could stretch out to the 39 nearest galexies, which would all be in realative the same time era in space.... now because of the big bang. the futher out you look in space, the further back in time, you go. so as you add the 9th chevron you add a time factor.
so as you dial to a coridinate way out there, to conect to it and actually meet anyone you would have to go back in time. so what the 9th glyph allows you to do is to access any point in our universe at the same realative time as your planet. Only this wouldn't require that you go through a sun flare....
now i know that this is only a combitnation of 2 theories but it uses the fundimental laws of the universe and the ime-space relation.
any one confused?
ok we know that the 8th symbol extends the radius of teh gate system.... but one thing you've forgotten is that it may be designed so that its range is limited to the 39 closest galexies.... so that would mean that you've got this...
x1, x2, y1, y2, z1, z2, and the origin as the base sets for our galexy (each galexy that had there own stargate system would have all of these, only different symbols)
then you have the 8th chevron for the next 39 closest galexies....
so to recap what has been said we have the...
-time theory
-big bang time theory
-multiply universe idea
and...
- the distance theory
so with that i'm going to add one of my own....
consivably for a 9th chevron to work we would need DHD, becasue they can add any amount of power that they want so you would just have to press 9 chevrons instead of 8 or 7. So then if you had that locked in and the gate allowed you to start it up... then concevable it would work... then the fun begins... lets call the 8th and 9th, a and b.... now when you dial a planet you have to have the coridnates of the planet with the factor of a in it.... now a could represent a multiplication of the coridinates of 2. so that increases the consevable distance to 2, and then lets say it could stretch out to the 39 nearest galexies, which would all be in realative the same time era in space.... now because of the big bang. the futher out you look in space, the further back in time, you go. so as you add the 9th chevron you add a time factor.
so as you dial to a coridinate way out there, to conect to it and actually meet anyone you would have to go back in time. so what the 9th glyph allows you to do is to access any point in our universe at the same realative time as your planet. Only this wouldn't require that you go through a sun flare....
now i know that this is only a combitnation of 2 theories but it uses the fundimental laws of the universe and the ime-space relation.
any one confused?
Yes, I AM confused. When you say "the further out you look in space, the further back in time you go" , what do you mean? I realise that the Hubble telescope, for instance, can "look back in time", as it were, but really what is happening is that the distance from our planet in space to the location in space of a galaxy hundreds of billions of light years away is so vast, that the light leaving that galaxy hundreds of billions of years ago is only now reaching our solar system. In fact, if you were to (somehow) instantaniously transport yourself to that galaxy NOW, the galaxy you were "looking at" would ba A LOT different from the one you were to visit. The image of this galaxy is a relic of hundreds of billions of years, and is nothing like what it is today.
In other words, when you "look out" really far into space, you are NOT looking back in time.
BC Rommie :D
The Charmed One
- Joined
- Nov 3, 2001
- Messages
- 22
in my oppinion the 9th one is used to go even further away from the asgard galaxy so it will prob be used to add more distance
Ok, I know that most of my wacky theories kinda fail to relate back to what I believe the 9th chevron does. Thing is, the way I figure it, to theorise what the 9th is capable of we need to use a basic knowledge of physics to support this.
I try to look at the Chevrons of the gate in reference to co-ordinates. Einstein proved that the speed of light was constant and absolute, and so space and time are relative quantities. To define and pinpoint an event, you use three co-ordinates for space, that is, x, y and z. And then a fourth coordinate is used for time, when the event occured. Call this fourth co-ord t. So I try to look at the chevrons representive of these points.
For example, the co-ord found through the first 6 chevrons is equivalent to x. The 7th, the point of origin, is used for y. If the 8th chevron extends gate radius, then that is z, and so.... whats left? The 9th chevron, used to pinpoint when the event occurs.
Now because the number of possibilities of chevron combinations is fixed, this to me indicates a time chart, or something whereby time is charted into that number of possible chevron/glyph sequences.
Also the obvious problem with the x y z and t thing is that obviously, you don't use the ninth chevron all the time, or the 8th, so where does the $dimensional space theory fit in during normal gate travel? I am guessing that within a certain radius, the 6 symbols comprise the original x yand z, while the point of origin is somehow subsituting the time coordinate. But then....now I am off on another train of thought...since there is no time dilation between Earth and the other planets sg1 travel to, then somehow the wormhole substitutes for this fourth coordinate and the space time continuum is void within this frame of reference (this frame of reference being the 7 symbol capacity for the gate).
I try to look at the Chevrons of the gate in reference to co-ordinates. Einstein proved that the speed of light was constant and absolute, and so space and time are relative quantities. To define and pinpoint an event, you use three co-ordinates for space, that is, x, y and z. And then a fourth coordinate is used for time, when the event occured. Call this fourth co-ord t. So I try to look at the chevrons representive of these points.
For example, the co-ord found through the first 6 chevrons is equivalent to x. The 7th, the point of origin, is used for y. If the 8th chevron extends gate radius, then that is z, and so.... whats left? The 9th chevron, used to pinpoint when the event occurs.
Now because the number of possibilities of chevron combinations is fixed, this to me indicates a time chart, or something whereby time is charted into that number of possible chevron/glyph sequences.
Also the obvious problem with the x y z and t thing is that obviously, you don't use the ninth chevron all the time, or the 8th, so where does the $dimensional space theory fit in during normal gate travel? I am guessing that within a certain radius, the 6 symbols comprise the original x yand z, while the point of origin is somehow subsituting the time coordinate. But then....now I am off on another train of thought...since there is no time dilation between Earth and the other planets sg1 travel to, then somehow the wormhole substitutes for this fourth coordinate and the space time continuum is void within this frame of reference (this frame of reference being the 7 symbol capacity for the gate).
PTeppic
Reetou Diplomatic Corp
- Joined
- May 31, 2001
- Messages
- 3,337
The problem with the ninth chevron (compared to most of the other technologies) is that we are pretty much guessing, however we call it!
With the other things we can use what we KNOW (i.e. what has been said on the show) and extrapolate into real-life science. For the ninth chevron, we know a small amount about the eight chevron, but only its result, not its actual effect... just a conclusion, not actually stopping this interesting and fascinating discussion, just sort of saying it will never come to a single conclusion because we don't have enough material yet from the show...
So - let's hope that the tantalising 9th (and 8th) chevronsmake a welcome re-appearence in either the movie or Series 6.
With the other things we can use what we KNOW (i.e. what has been said on the show) and extrapolate into real-life science. For the ninth chevron, we know a small amount about the eight chevron, but only its result, not its actual effect... just a conclusion, not actually stopping this interesting and fascinating discussion, just sort of saying it will never come to a single conclusion because we don't have enough material yet from the show...
So - let's hope that the tantalising 9th (and 8th) chevronsmake a welcome re-appearence in either the movie or Series 6.
I dont know about this -> Sam already worked out a way to negate the expansion of the galaxies (like continental drift, except on a universe-wide scale, and with galaxies instead of continents). Then they could dial Chulak, where they met Tea'lc...
Yeah..somehow Sam managed to factor in a value which simplyfied the equations, most likely by negating a already fixed value.
By cancelling the effects of steller drift and extrapolating new positions (most likely using dimensional space-time as a guide) Sam managed to reintergrate the addresses. And this can obviously be done again...
however I agree with Pteppic all of our conclusions and theories (or at least mine anyway!!) come from info given to us on the show, known theories and our own secondguessing. I too REALLY hope theres more to work with in the sixth season.
I find this kind of thing fun, it really teaches you concepts about not only the idea of a "stargate" but also physics. It certainly incredibly helpful to me to read other perspectives and theories. So thanks guys, Ive learned heaps from this entire forum!
By cancelling the effects of steller drift and extrapolating new positions (most likely using dimensional space-time as a guide) Sam managed to reintergrate the addresses. And this can obviously be done again...
however I agree with Pteppic all of our conclusions and theories (or at least mine anyway!!) come from info given to us on the show, known theories and our own secondguessing. I too REALLY hope theres more to work with in the sixth season.
I find this kind of thing fun, it really teaches you concepts about not only the idea of a "stargate" but also physics. It certainly incredibly helpful to me to read other perspectives and theories. So thanks guys, Ive learned heaps from this entire forum!
I did an assessment task for physics last year on Edwin Hubble, and if you look him up online there are HEAPS of addressess and links which refer to his work on the expanding universe. I am fairly sure I remember, one of these give a ~value for the rate of expansion and current size.
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