Who is Robbs heir?

[viZion]

Rickon is wold definitely be the legal heir if Robb didn't go and name someone else. The reason I say it wasn't Bran is because - has everyone forgotten this except me? - frogboy had a green dream that both Rob and Bran would die.

With Robb and Bran dead, that leaves Rickon. Sadly, he hasn't had the same training and discipline as the rest of the Stark children. However, maybe Robbs final decree will be heeded and someone else named heir. But... didn't someone mention that the only person who knows who he names was Roose Bolton?

Bran already "died". Ramsay Bolton "killed" him. In fact, Ramsay "killed" Rickon as well. Remember, Boring Frog Boy's exact dream was that he saw Ramsay skinning off Bran AND Rickon's faces. The dream was fulfilled when Ramsay killed those miller's boys, skinned their faces off and then gave them to Theon to pass off as Bran and Rickon. This is why everyone thinks Bran and Rickon are dead. As far as I know, Jojen never dreamed of Robb's death. Smack me down if I'm wrong.

 

[Lady of Winterfell]

The reason I say it wasn't Bran is because - has everyone forgotten this except me? - frogboy had a green dream that both Rob and Bran would die.

Can you tell me where in the books this is described? I don't remember Jojen having a green dream telling us this.

I thought Jojen had a green dream about Bran and Rickon being dead, but it was the two bodies of others boys dressed like Bran and Rickon by Theon that he was actually seeing. I could be wrong, so if someone could rexplain this that would be most appreciated!

Edit: Didn't see viZion's post before I posted mine, but I do believe he is correct.

 

[DeannaBelle]

Bran already "died". Ramsay Bolton "killed" him. In fact, Ramsay "killed" Rickon as well. Remember, Boring Frog Boy's exact dream was that he saw Ramsay skinning off Bran AND Rickon's faces. The dream was fulfilled when Ramsay killed those miller's boys, skinned their faces off and then gave them to Theon to pass off as Bran and Rickon. This is why everyone thinks Bran and Rickon are dead. As far as I know, Jojen never dreamed of Robb's death. Smack me down if I'm wrong.

No, you're probably right. I sometimes get impatient and skip over entires paragraphs. in the last book, I skipped entire chapters. I kick myself for it now because I have a lot of rereading to do.

GRRM Ice and Fire is not like Margaret Mitchell's Gone With the Wind where you can skip over large chunks.

Thank you for pointing out the exact dream to me. I was resigned to the fact that Bran would die. And I didn't remember Jojen's dream saying anything about Rickon.

 

[DeannaBelle]

Well, I guess that would explain why everyone "disregarded" (as I thought) the "fact" that Bran was going to die.

 

[Weasel Soup]

OK, odd question....Bran alive would supposedly (as it is not Dorne) be the next heir to Winterfell, and as that, would he now be the rightful king of the north?

In this case, what happens in a meeting between Bran and Melisandre? (as they are in proximity of one another)

 

[Koopa]

Lol, i was just thinking about Robb's heir, when i suddenly came to the insight that instead of heir, he may have settled for a regent, most probably Brynden Tully.
Lucky for me i reread first and realised that Eggy (mind the y ^^) had already mentioned this.

However i do not think he has considered the possible as Brynden Tully being some kind of kingmaker. What if he has been given the right by Robb to appoint the next King in the North. Giving the title to whom he thinks best suited, given that the possible contenders meet certain requirements.

 

[viZion]

I wonder if Robb even made provisions for a King in the North. Maybe he just named an heir to Winterfell and that's it. He had to know that if it came down to using that copy of his will that the war was lost and that there wouldn't be *any* King of the North. If he wins the war and establishes his Kingdom then he could make a new will.

 

[Koopa]

Seeing at how heir to winterfell at the time was the same as being heir to the title king in the north, i'd say so. In the chapter that he discusses it, they talk first about trifister, and that the next king was not strong enough. So Robb is most definitely seeking for a heir who can succeed as king in the north if it where to come to it.

 

[Animusman]

Even if Jon is legitimized he still is a man of the night's watch, therefore he cannot be heir of winterfell anymore.

Bran is alive, and thus the Heir, now since he probably won't be able to have children, it will be Rickon's who will inherit when Bran dies, that is to say if Rickon lives long enough to have children

He can be the Heir of Winterfell if there is no longer a reason for the NIght's Watch existence...i e defeat the Others. Remember Robb legitimized Jon when Robb was a king and only a king can turn the ******* Jon Snow into John Stark.

 

[Boaz]

ASOIAF is strongly/loosely (you choose) inspired by fifteenth century England and the War(s) of the Roses. English politics in the thirteenth, fourteenth, and fifteenth centuries saw the use of Attainder by the Crown to dispossess certain men and houses. Basically attainder means that a person is guilty of high treason and has forfeited all rights.

Attainder could also be accompanied by the claim of corruption of blood... and this means that in addition to being condemned to death, the person's family is also accused of treason by association of blood and so they cannot inherit the traitor's titles, lands, money, or possessions. All of the traitor's things are claimed by the King.

Noble houses that found themselves on the losing side in the War of the Roses often found themselves under attainder. If they could stay alive long enough to get their candidate back on the throne, then the attainder could be reversed. This happened on more than one occasion.

Anyway, we've not yet seen a declaration of attainder yet in ASOIAF. But it seems that the nobles who have not gone to KL to bend the knee to the Baratheon Kings (Lannisters) have found themselves stripped of titles, lands, and possessions. Lords Edmure Tully and Alester Florent are prime examples. They lost their family lands and titles to Emmon Frey and Garlan Tyrell respectively.

After Eddard's death, either Robb or Catelyn should have been Sansa' legal guardian. Yet, since the Crown claimed Robb Stark an outlaw, the Lannister's claimed Sansa as a ward of the Crown.

Martin has not used the word attainder, but it seems clear that those in power make the rules and will dispossess the losers. So unless the Starks and Tullys can win the Iron Throne, then Riverrun will remain in Lannister hands and Sansa will remain married to Tyrion... and Jon Snow will remain on the Wall.

 

[Charming Serpent]

ACoK page 996, jaime's PoV:

"Only a few more, Your Grace." Ser Kevan Lannister assured him. "This is a bill of attainder against Lord Edmure Tully, stripping him of all his lands and incomes, for rebelling against his lawful king. This is a similiar attainder against his uncle Ser Brynden Tully, the Blackfish." Tommen signed them one after another, dipping the quill carefully and writing in a broad childish hand.

I'm back from Ireland and England by the way guys. Good to be back.

 

[viZion]

Wow, nice find, CS.

 

[Scurveydog77]

Just to confuse the issue.

When young lyanna mormont sent her rejection to stanis, (this is in the new POV on Jon that is now posted on GRRM's website), she wrote that the only king they acknowledge is the king of the north, named Stark. This would have been written AFTER Rob was killed. Remember, Lady Mormont was sent away before the Red Wedding, and she knows who Rob named as his heir. They also believe that Bran & Ricken are dead and that Sansa is now a Lannister, not a Stark and that Ayria is missing and presumed dead.

 

[Charming Serpent]

Nice theory, but I think it was just a stubborn comment on her part that the North will except no king other than a Stark. That being their love for Robb and the Starks as a whole. More of a "I don't care who you are. We chose our King and will choose no others type comment"

 

[Aegon the Unworthy]

Unless Rickon and Osha made the very improbable journey from Winterfell to Bear Island.....

 

[Boaz]

Rickon is a wolf in bear's clothing.

CS, sorry that I did not see your Feb. 15 response sooner. Wow! You found mention of attainder... Kudos to you, my friend. Now if you'll just assist me in removing my foot from my mouth...

I've not yet finished Seward's history on the York/Lancaster struggle, but I read earlier today that one man survived long enough to see his side back in power and his attainder reversed... he lived longer and saw the other side gain power and sign a second bill of attainder against him.

 

[Charming Serpent]

Ohhhhh, good one Egg. I actually forgot about Rickon. Though I am not sure they would reveal him as alive yet. But, who knows?

 

[Fourth Hunter]

OR...oh, heck, who am I kidding I have no clue. I do however think that Bear Island would be far too obvious a place to hide an heir. Of course they'll check the family's most loyal bannermen. Jon? But they dismissed that in conference...of course it was Caitlyn who dismissed it...maybe Robb possessed more political acumen than we thought and understood that his mother wasn't all that brilliant?

 

[Charming Serpent]

4th, are you talking about when Robb wanted to make Jon his heir and Catelyn argued against it?? If that is so then you must not remember when Robb tell his mother that after the wedding she is going to Seagard with Mallister. At the end of that chapter Robb is telling his bannerman who he wants to succeed him (Jon) and as their King commands them to fix their seals.

I have no clue where Rickon is though. Greywater, maybe. Or perhaps White Harbor.

 

[Scurveydog77]

If the Mormont's know that Ricken is still alive then they nor that Bran is also alive and he would still be Rob's legal heir. But if Rob legitimized Jon, then he would be the elder, therefore the heir.

Speaking of Bran, he is with Coldhands on his way to learn how to fly. Remember: 'The dragon has three heads'. Dany for fire, Jon for Ice and Bran could learn to fly, if he had a dragon. Bran & Dany? She can not conceive, he can not breed and the poor ******* stays on the wall?