Who is Robbs heir?

[Funky Cthulu]

Fair nuff tsw, I was just thinking if Ned really thought there was a chance of danger why would he bring the kids....but its one of those issues I dont really care that much to argue. It had to happen for the story and quite frankly thats enough for me.

No stress, its been a good thread and I enjoy having to think about these things. My sister (whom I have just introduced to the books) has just read about the Red Wedding and when I asked her about what she thought Ned should have done calmly replied "Well, its obvious so far that no matter what they do, they'll have a horrible ending, so they might as well just do as they please!"

 

[the smiling weirwood]

Perhaps I am too naive but so far all the characters seem to act true to themselves. Unlike other books(Jordan and Erikson come to mind) the characters do not seem to do completely unnatural things for plot. I just don't see any of that with Martin.

 

[Koopa]

In case you lot are forgetting Rober is king atm and cersei king, now you can hardly refuse them in certain matters.

As for bringing his family, may i remind you lot that at that particular point Joffrey was engaged to Sansa. He left Robb and Rickon home with Catelyn.

Bran and Arya had to come with him as well, but for Bran the reason was that he was a boy quick to laugh, it was in the hopes of bettering the relation between Joffrey and the rest of the Starks (wich in time if things had not evolved the way they did would have helped the stark Family).

As for Arya, one has to consider that in that society she in her role at that moment needed a bit of primping, wich the royal court would be a lot more helpful at then staying in Winterfell. Also i have a personal feeling that Arya was (besides/together with Jon maybe) his favourite. It is obvious to me he loved Lyanna, in the same way it is obvious to me that Ned is reminded of Lyanna by Arya. Perhaps he is loath to part from her, especially when you consider what happened to lyanna wishing to keep her thus close for various (family reasons). Ned to me was a man of honor, but even more a family man proven by the fact that in the end he chose indeed his family over honor and thus proclaiming himself a traitor in the eyes of the rest of the realm.

 

[devilsgrin]

I had not forgotten that Robert was the King, nor Cercei his queen. No they could not be ignored in certain matters, i'd say Robert could not be ignored in any matters, but Cercei is entirely different. Being Queen grants her almost no authority whatsoever that Robert doesn't agree to. At this point she really is nothing more than a dangerous woman playing games with the men around her. It is the threat of the Lannisters that gives Cercei a small sliver of power - which we learn she grew to enjoy and craved ever more. Without the power of the Lannisters behind her, Cercei was nothing more than the Lady of the Red Keep, and mother to the king's heirs.
Ignoring a person and obeying or disobeying an injust order are not the same thing. Eddard Stark is a far more powerful personage than Cercei Lannister. He is, for all intents and purposes the King in the North, with the title altered to Warden of the North. If he were a more able politician he would have realised the enormous leverage he had in any situation. Alas for him and all Starks, he did not realise his own power, relied too much on the supposed authority of the office of the Hand of the King, and relied to much on the honour of others, for which he ended up beheaded and his House all-buit annihilated.

 

[Koopa]

Lolz, a queen does have some power man. Besides Robert agrees with it.
So instead of just watch when Ilyn Payne performs the King's Order he decides to do it himself for various reasons. Wich to me is a character treat that should be applauded, not hated.

 

[devilsgrin]

i didn't say she had none. But a consort has only the power her husband (or his wife) permits. Cercei's lannister power was her true influence. Not her crown.

 

[Koopa]

it does not really matter where her power comes from now is it, all that matters is she has it.

Also it is clear Robert was in many ways weak and easy in giving in to Cersei at certain points. Thus by this circumvent way she was holding a lot of power. Also a queen does have some power, and a liegelord must also obay his queen.

 

[the smiling weirwood]

It matters very much where her power comes from. This was made evident when her father blew into town and effectively ended her representation of House Lannister in King's Landing. After that she just slid downhill.

 

[Koopa]

Well yes in that case it matters, but in the moment we are speaking of it doesnt, what matters is that at that particular moment she holds enough power, whereas through her connection or the fact the she is queen and ned as her liegelord must obey her, to make sure that Lady get axed.

Even if she has zero power, she manages in that moment, to make Robert agree with her, thus Lady was getting killed by Ilyn payne.

Ned then and only then when there is nothing short of going to war over this he can do decides to do it himself. (wich to me is as i said admirable)

 

[the smiling weirwood]

I really wasn't paying attention to what you were saying earlier.

 

[Koopa]

Whooptidoo

 

[Faceless Woman]

How is this anythig to do with Robb?
Whatever... cersei gets all her power through her femininity, through motherhood or sex, but feminine power only works if it is allowed to. Robert hated Cersei, but was weak against feminine power (and alcahol), so she still controlled him, but Tywin wasn't the sort to let a mere girl or anyone else control him or even be his equal, not after seeing his father controlled by his mistress.

 

[DeannaBelle]

A little bit of cold and crow will do him good

Erm, he's paralysed from the waist down?

Usually that means he cant at least in Real Life

He's not paralyzed per se, it's just that his legs are shattered. The feeling in his legs is gone, but that doesn't mean his um...other feelings are gone. It's not as if his spine was injured.

Just wait for 4 important things to happen that will decide all in terms of the North:

1) Asha breaks Theon out of prison

2) The Others come marching over the Wall (after smashing it).

3) Bran meets the three-eyed crow (...and I don't remember any reference to his inabilities to have children...and he's only 12 or 13).

4) Dany invades and with the help of some advisors (Tyrion, Sansa, Quentyn, Jon, etc.) sets things right.

He's paralysed, but reproduction runs on a different system. I saw that in a Christopher Reeves interview.

 

[DeannaBelle]

Don't Ned and Cat have a little cry after his accident, bemoaning the fact that he will never hold his Son in his arm's etc?

That's because she bellieved he would never marry. Not because he's not capable.

 

[DeannaBelle]

Rickon is wold definitely be the legal heir if Robb didn't go and name someone else. The reason I say it wasn't Bran is because - has everyone forgotten this except me? - frogboy had a green dream that both Rob and Bran would die.

With Robb and Bran dead, that leaves Rickon. Sadly, he hasn't had the same training and discipline as the rest of the Stark children. However, maybe Robbs final decree will be heeded and someone else named heir. But... didn't someone mention that the only person who knows who he names was Roose Bolton?

 

[Boaz]

Sadly, he hasn't had the same training and discipline as the rest of the Stark children.

To play devil's advocate, I'd say this is the best hope for the North and the Stark family. He is too young to have been infected by Eddard and Catelyn. Osha and Mors Umber can raise him to be a real man.

 

[DeannaBelle]

Hmmm... people are mentioning the wall being destroyed, and I'd wished against it, but it lends a "new" theory (not sure I can properly call it new).

Aemon's most important revelation was that "fire destroys but ice preserves." I believe that even before Targ rule, the wall was. Perhaps the greatest mistake during their reign was that they neglected to unite Ice and Fire. That's what everyone agrees that Rheagar was trying do with Lyanna.

Anyway, if the wall is destroyed, perhaps the evil can be completely delt with instead of hidden. ANd Ice and Fire can be united, expanding the realm to beyond the wall. Then Jon could be freed from his vows and be king of the north. I personally like the wall. But I personally want Jon to reproduce.

Although it is rather sexy (lke Colin Firth in "Pride and Prejudice") to think of Jon burning for love, but fighting to stay true to his honor : )

 

[Boaz]

Although it is rather sexy (lke Colin Firth in "Pride and Prejudice") to think of Jon burning for love, but fighting to stay true to his honor

Didn't Jon already go through this dilemma? Furthermore, Jon has many ti... wait, wait, wait! Did you just describe Colin Firth as sexy? <Boaz shudders> Thank God I'm not a woman.

 

[DeannaBelle]

What aid did he finally offer?

All he accomplished was holding off the execution of his friend a few days, getting his family destroyed, etc..

I do agree with you on one hand, that a man should "help a brotha out", but you knew the first time you read the book going to King's Landing was bad news. I love everyone in my family dearly, but let a one of them become a danger to my child and it is hitting the fan. Your children should come first. If that isn't the case don't have more!

I had never thought of it this way until reading devilsgrin's comment, but if Ned cared more about honor than his family than he deserved his fate. I have always respected Ned for his honor and integrity. If everyone on this board agrees that his family was just a by-product to be thrown carelessly aside then so be it. Ned was not the man I thought him to be.

I know Ned thought long and hard about going to Kings Landing, yet he made the wrong choice. And while I am at it, I say boooo to Robert for being so dungheaded as to think that Ned would make a difference. Robert may have once been Ned's friend and a great man, but he had become a poor excuse for a human being

just fanning the flames

Cersei put her kids first.



(j/k, she put herself first.)

 

[DeannaBelle]

I have never seen Colin Firth in anything except "Pride and Prejudice," and it was his brooding that was EXTREMELY sexy. Apparentl, the director coached him on how to be sexy.

And what do you mean Rickon escaped the "infection" of Eddard? I love Edd. But yeah, I wouldn't have liked having a cold father. He was quite opposite of Rickon, the very opposite.