Who is Robbs heir?

[the smiling weirwood]

Or maybe he's asexual.

 

[JohnSnow]

I don't view Ned's trek to KL as a dumb move....

Sorry Boaz, I have to disagree with you. Ned knew something was up. He had warning Jon was murdered and yet he went anyway. It may have ticked Robert off, but he should have known family was more important than honor.

Brynden never married... why? He could not stand the spineless, gossiping, frivolous southern women? Well, what if he fell for Osha? She's a tough as nails northwoman who has an independent spirit.

You must have a different mental image of Osha then I do!!!!?!?

What if Jeyne and Robb visited her for a prophecy? Who knows what she might have said... she might have said that Bran was still alive and that he'd live to a great age. Then Robb might have named Bran his heir and Brynden might be out questing for Bran.

That would explain a lot, except would Robb not tell his mother becuase he was afraid she would go running off by herself to find him??

Or maybe he's asexual.

Bad tree, bad tree. With that I take my leave....


*snow*

 

[devilsgrin]

Ned knew something was up. He had warning Jon was murdered and yet he went anyway. It may have ticked Robert off, but he should have known family was more important than honor.

Your talking about Ned Stark - NOTHING is more important to Ned Stark than honor. Not his wife, not his children, not the north, not winterfell. To Ned Stark honor was everything! Thats why he warned Cercei, thats why he refused the dandy Renly (he probably also doubted the honor of a homosexual - [not that i doubt it] as Renly's tastes were widely known) and thats why he trusted Littlefinger's honor. Ned Stark was like Stannis - remarkably so in fact, just more likable from a readers persective.

 

[the smiling weirwood]

No, he was not. Ned chose love and family in the end. Stannis would rather chose death than forsake his "honor".

 

[Jon Stark]

No, he was not. Ned chose love and family in the end. Stannis would rather chose death than forsake his "honor".

Nope, he had chosen blood over honor in the war, just like Ned.

 

[the smiling weirwood]

What about continuing the war for the sake of his "rights" when it could only lead to more bloodshed. He didn't have the forces to take Westoros and he knew it but he went on anyway, causing all kinds of tragedy and death. All for the sake of honor.

 

[Jon Stark]

Ned did the same thing too, if he had only sided with Cersei, he could have avoided the war as well.

 

[Aegon the Unworthy]

Sorry Boaz, I have to disagree with you. Ned knew something was up. He had warning Jon was murdered and yet he went anyway. It may have ticked Robert off, but he should have known family was more important than honor.

It is never a dumb move to aid a brother, or friend from enemies he cant see. Never. What kind of friend would Ned be if he let Robert ride south in the host of his enemies. I just can not accept that coming to the aid of a friend is a bad thing.

It was stupid to tell Cersei what was coming, and it was stupid not to tell Robert about his suspicions and Im sure theres 14 other places where Ned was dumb....I just cant accept that one.

 

[Boaz]

Thanks Aegon.

tsw, I respectfully disagree that honor is Stannis' driving motivation. I submit that it is indeed a major concern of his, but that justice is the main thing that keeps Stannis wound as tight as he is. Now, because Stannis' positions in life have given him prestige, wealth, power, and position, I daresay that his honor is inextricably linked with his concept of justice.

I think we'd all agree that as Lord, Prince, Master of Ships, and King, Stannis is far more concerned over what is right than what is popular. But Stannis has now dumped his honor to achieve what he deems justice... his birthright... the Iron Throne. He's conspired to murder Joffrey Baratheon, Robb Stark, and Edric Storm and been accomplice to the murder of Renly. And it seems that he's conspiring to the murder of Mance Rayder's infant son.

What honor is there in a king who would murder his own nephew?

Sure, Stannis' claim to the throne is true. Yes, he's harboring resentment against other Baratheons, the Lannisters, the Starks, and all other houses for the lack of recognition for his loyalty, his battle prowess, and his leadership. All of these are slights upon his honor... and now that he's King of the Seven Kingdoms (or at least a few Storm Lords), well, a king cannot brook slights upon his honor. In my opinion, Stannis has besmirched his sacred honor by conspiring to murder Edric. The murders of Joff, Robb, Mance, Mance's son, Renly and Ser Cortnay Penrose all dealt with traitors and so were official state policy... though the kinslaying haunts Stannis because it was dishonorable. I think that just like Catelyn (Stoneheart), Thoros, Lem, Anguy, and all others associated with Rh'llor (sp?), Stannis has abandoned honor and decided that the end justifies the means.

 

[JohnSnow]

It is never a dumb move to aid a brother, or friend from enemies he cant see. Never. What kind of friend would Ned be if he let Robert ride south in the host of his enemies. I just can not accept that coming to the aid of a friend is a bad thing.

What aid did he finally offer?

All he accomplished was holding off the execution of his friend a few days, getting his family destroyed, etc..

I do agree with you on one hand, that a man should "help a brotha out", but you knew the first time you read the book going to King's Landing was bad news. I love everyone in my family dearly, but let a one of them become a danger to my child and it is hitting the fan. Your children should come first. If that isn't the case don't have more!

I had never thought of it this way until reading devilsgrin's comment, but if Ned cared more about honor than his family than he deserved his fate. I have always respected Ned for his honor and integrity. If everyone on this board agrees that his family was just a by-product to be thrown carelessly aside then so be it. Ned was not the man I thought him to be.

I know Ned thought long and hard about going to Kings Landing, yet he made the wrong choice. And while I am at it, I say boooo to Robert for being so dungheaded as to think that Ned would make a difference. Robert may have once been Ned's friend and a great man, but he had become a poor excuse for a human being

just fanning the flames

 

[JohnSnow]

By the way Stannis and Stark are quite different from each other. Stannis is only concerned with what he deserves by right. Ned was only concerned with doing the right thing. Stannis has a tainted sense of honor.

Ned could write a canon on being honorable.

*snow*

 

[Aegon the Unworthy]

What aid did he finally offer?

All he accomplished was holding off the execution of his friend a few days, getting his family destroyed, etc..

I do agree with you on one hand, that a man should "help a brotha out", but you knew the first time you read the book going to King's Landing was bad news. I love everyone in my family dearly, but let a one of them become a danger to my child and it is hitting the fan. Your children should come first. If that isn't the case don't have more!

I had never thought of it this way until reading devilsgrin's comment, but if Ned cared more about honor than his family than he deserved his fate. I have always respected Ned for his honor and integrity. If everyone on this board agrees that his family was just a by-product to be thrown carelessly aside then so be it. Ned was not the man I thought him to be.

This is one of those things that I really feel theres no debate on. Ned went to KL to help a friend in a predicament, thats a good thing. The fact that he did not help is irrelevant to the discussion. Yes we could see it coming through the lense of hindsight but Ned did not have that benefit. I also think that if someone told Ned he would be beheaded he still would have gone. He's the type of person who could not live with himself otherwise.

As for throwing family away...thats just a load. First and foremost, Robert was family as well. Saying he threw Catelyn and Co to the wolves for a non-family member is a fallacy. Secondly, his family was in no danger at this point. Yes he put them at risk by engaging in the game but that was unavoidable, and he would have done things different had he known the rest of his family would be killed but he didnt know that.

Throwing family away for honor, pftt!....To someone like Ned family and honor are so intrinsicly intertwined there is little difference in the two.

Thanks

 

[Koopa]

Jon Arryn was like a second father to Ned, so he was especially honourbound to go.

The problem with ned was not his honor, it was his mercy that cost him his life in the game of thrones

 

[the smiling weirwood]

bleargh...Why do I try talk about my least favorite character(Stannis) when I'm out of it? In my desperate attempt to disengage anything remotely smacking of Stannis from other characters I think I made a fool of myself. Anyway, I agree with Boaz.

 

[devilsgrin]

having thought about this a little, i'd have to agree that stannis does not act out of honour - per se - but indeed out of his own sense of justice. which IS intrinsically linked to his honour.
I do still think that Ned chose honor over his immediate family... Yes i agree that Jon Arryn was like his father and investigating his death was important to him, and that Robert had indeed been like a brother to Ned - though time had clearly changed Robert Baratheon into someone entirely different to the friend that Ned knew. But taking his children with him! what utter foolishness.
The first moment i realised Ned would choose honor over his family was when he killed Lady. For no reason other than Cercei and Joffery wanted revenge on a wolf, any wolf. He broke Sansa's heart for no reason costing both of his daughters their dire wolves. He was Lord of Winterfell, Warden of the North and Hand of the King, he was in no real danger at that point...he was doing Robert a favour by becoming Hand, as Robert well knew.

 

[Aegon the Unworthy]

having thought about this a little, i'd have to agree that stannis does not act out of honour - per se - but indeed out of his own sense of justice. which IS intrinsically linked to his honour.
I do still think that Ned chose honor over his immediate family... Yes i agree that Jon Arryn was like his father and investigating his death was important to him, and that Robert had indeed been like a brother to Ned - though time had clearly changed Robert Baratheon into someone entirely different to the friend that Ned knew. But taking his children with him! what utter foolishness.
The first moment i realised Ned would choose honor over his family was when he killed Lady. For no reason other than Cercei and Joffery wanted revenge on a wolf, any wolf. He broke Sansa's heart for no reason costing both of his daughters their dire wolves. He was Lord of Winterfell, Warden of the North and Hand of the King, he was in no real danger at that point...he was doing Robert a favour by becoming Hand, as Robert well knew.

No he killed Lady because it was at the order of the king. Not because Joff or Cersei desired it. He chose not to disobey the lawful order of his king and go to war over a wolf. Whats the option if Ned refuses? Robert is forced to declare him a traitor. Then what happens to his family? Personally I think he chose family over personal honor in this one. Yes it was not his brightest moment but sometimes honor is horribly cruel sword.

Im still trying to understand how going to Kings Landing is choosing honor over family. Was his immediate family in peril from something? Were the wildlings invading? Were the Ironborn coming to town and bringing lots of toys and goodies? Its not "choosing" one side over the other if youre not giving anything up on the other. Maybe no one sees this but me, but Ned didnt forsake his family because he went south, but he would be forsaking his blood brother if he did not.

I wont defend taking the girls with him. Its a plot device and I dont think the idealized Ned would do...but yer right it was a lame move.

 

[the smiling weirwood]

It was an attempt to bring his family with him and he and Catelyn were probably hoping to find suitable marriages for them and polish Arya up a bit in the Southron court.

 

[Funky Cthulu]

Plus if he came himself and left his family, that may have alerted Roberts enemies that Ned was preparing for an attack. He was in a double bind - leave the family at home and appear suspiciously untrusting (thus undoing his chances to move before the Lannisters did and safeguard Roberts life) or bring them and risk their safety if things went bad.

 

[Aegon the Unworthy]

Fair nuff tsw, I was just thinking if Ned really thought there was a chance of danger why would he bring the kids....but its one of those issues I dont really care that much to argue. It had to happen for the story and quite frankly thats enough for me.

 

[Funky Cthulu]

Fair nuff tsw, I was just thinking if Ned really thought there was a chance of danger why would he bring the kids....but its one of those issues I dont really care that much to argue. It had to happen for the story and quite frankly thats enough for me.

No stress, its been a good thread and I enjoy having to think about these things. My sister (whom I have just introduced to the books) has just read about the Red Wedding and when I asked her about what she thought Ned should have done calmly replied "Well, its obvious so far that no matter what they do, they'll have a horrible ending, so they might as well just do as they please!"