Immortality, who wants to live forever?

[Tau Zero]

JD,

Your points are good, but i think they're your perceptions, not the reality you claim since immortality doesn't occur.

As in most circumstances, people make their own "hell" or "heaven." I've seen people living in terrific places bemoaning the fact that they have to live there and i've seen people live in lousy places and finding it wonderful. My point here is the concept of the self-fulfilling prophesy. If you expect it to be bad, it will be bad.

You state that existance would become a burden. That death is the goad to grow. There's nothing to support this view. I certainly don't accomplish the things i've done because death lurks in my future.

As for a world without children, i never meant to imply that! That would be a horror. Not to have any children left in the world, would mean that everyone would have to take the pill before puberty; i never meant that. Many people mentioned that being around 30 years old is a great age to be immortal. Most of the people i know have children by 30. Immortality is voluntary, so have and raise your kids, and when you're done and want to live forever, take the pill. The population would grow as it does now, but we wouldn't have immortals reproducing for millenia.

Immortality can work for anyone who sees something left to do. There is so much i want do that i couldn't estimate the number of millenia it would take. There is just so much to do out there and it takes so long to be great at all of them.

 

[j d worthington]

JD,

Your points are good, but i think they're your perceptions, not the reality you claim since immortality doesn't occur.

Eh? Perhaps there's been a miscommunication, and I wasn't clear in my phrasing. The reality I refer to is the findings of psychology/psychiatry and the physiology of the brain -- as far as I know, no, there isn't anyplace immortality has taken place (then again..... ). All the indications are that the brain really does have a limited capacity for storing memories and experiences, and that, the closer one comes to that limit, the more partial and spotty the memories become, finally getting to a point where they aren't retained at all. And, again, the psychological factors enter in here, as well, in that, as experiences become repeatable, they begin to lose their novelty-value, and can (and eventually do) become dull, even feeling like a punishment eventually. Anything will take on that cast given long enough, no matter what it is. That's the way our psychology works. An eternity of experience (as opposed to a prolonged existence) would inevitably have that effect, as there's only a limited amount of experience that the brain would be able to take in, and the more experiences, the more one begins to see similarities to other experiences, as well, until eventually (though in exploring the universe, etc., this might take a tremendously long time) they simply become too similar, and lack enough contrast to excite interest. As I say, there may be the very rare exceptions, but look at the figures, and you'll find this is true for the vast majority of human beings.

As in most circumstances, people make their own "hell" or "heaven." I've seen people living in terrific places bemoaning the fact that they have to live there and i've seen people live in lousy places and finding it wonderful. My point here is the concept of the self-fulfilling prophesy. If you expect it to be bad, it will be bad.

There's certainly a fair amount of truth to this. People can turn a paradise into hell in their own mind, and vice versa (within limits, of course, especially for the latter -- if you're in a plague zone, or surrounded by death and destruction on a massive scale, the only way to turn that into a pleasant place is by use of some form of severe denial of reality, becoming delusional; but of course those are the very, very extremes). But there comes a point where the effects of the pain around you cannot be fended off without recourse to something of that sort, as the world situation worsens (which it is likely to do, as people will continue to breed, and with immortality, you'd end up with even worse population problems, or enforced sterility -- neither of which is a desirable outcome).

You state that existance would become a burden. That death is the goad to grow. There's nothing to support this view. I certainly don't accomplish the things i've done because death lurks in my future.

Again, this is supported by an enormous amount of research in psychology. It is almost never on a conscious level, granted; but that goad is there, nonetheless, as death permeates our worldview, however much we shut our eyes to it ... we're aware of it from a very early age, and we're surrounded with it every day -- the newscasts, friends and family members that die, or hearing about it from neighbors, friends, schoolmates, etc., etc., etc. It isn't a negative thing, as it prompts us to strive to improve things in so many areas, from medicine (where it most certainly is the major incentive -- the desire to conquer death and the illnesses that lead to it) to exploration (perhaps even to the stars), for lebensraum because of overcrowding and the danger of starvation, etc. It, along with the sexual instinct (which, it is often argued, is closely linked to this on the most basic level as the instinct for survival, even if only through progeny) powers vast amounts of what we do: Improvements in our hygiene, improvements in our foods and food preservation.... all stem from a desire to prolong life ... and what is that but a fear of its opposite?

As for the "world without children" -- I apologize. I misread your intent on that post. However, there we run (once again) into the problems with population pressure, and the impact of that on resources, and the social impact of that, including increasingly draconian measures concerning childbearing and child-rearing.

There's also another aspect that's not been discussed. I see a lot of talk about doing the things we want to do, whether it be exploring nature, travel, going to see other worlds, etc. ... but how is that to be financed individually? Doesn't that mean continuing to work indefinitely? While there may be quite a few who truly enjoy their jobs, anyone out there think that they'd like to stick with that job forever? And if not ... again, you've got the competition growing as the population grows (and while immortality may be voluntary, even if it has disastrous effects as I predict, people will take the chance, and the population will continue to skyrocket). Not to mention the fact that automation will (even if we stopped having children today) increase at least for a good while, and that's going to eliminate more and more ways to earn an income, as the machines become better able to provide any goods or services than people, more quickly and efficiently and without all the necessary benefits packages.

Again, I stress that I am not denying the attractions of immortality; but I am arguing from a more realistic viewpoint based not on the existence of immortality, but extrapolating the effects from the known psychological/emotional makeup of the majority of human beings, and our history, and how very poorly we are equipped emotionally to deal with even mild boredom, let alone the kind that most people would experience with immortality. Let's face it, the vast majority of people are extremely limited in imagination, even in being able to entertain themselves (partially the fault of lack of nurturing that quality in our educational system and often at home, but also largely because the majority simply lack the ability to stretch their imaginations, and are frankly disinclined to try) ... can you imagine what would happen with that problem being compounded by an eternity of boredom?

I am sure that there are strong-enough-minded individuals to enjoy an immensely prolonged lifespan, if they are allowed to live it freely. But I'm afraid that anyone would eventually reach a limit on this, if we're talking true immortality. (Longevity is another thing.) And in the meantime, we aren't isolates; we interact with our societies, and that interaction would play an enormous role in how enjoyable such a prospect would or would not be.

Has anyone thought about this aspect of it: All the nations we know now are relatively young, from the point of view of our existence as human beings. Even the oldest is only a few thousand years in age. The vast majority are considerably younger. America is, of course, only roughly two centuries in age (three-and-a-half, if you go back to the landing at Plymouth, for the current predominant culture). Now -- how much longer will any of these nations be around? Some will not last out the century. Most will not last the next thousand years. Nations are, by and large, precariously stable things. While it might be fascinating to watch the changes, how many will care to live through the changes, in the thick of them ... especially if their nation is one that no longer exists as such? And that is only one aspect to consider.

At any rate, I think I'll withdraw, as I've filled up far too much space as it is. It's a good discussion, and I may pop back in now and again; but it's time I shut up and let others speak, I think. (Looking back over this post, I'd say it's long past time!) However -- for the aspiring writers out there, I hope that both sides have provided food for thought, so that anyone interested in writing a story on the subject has had their imagination stimulated to start extrapolating and giving serious consideration to what the implications of such a change would be. The better thought-through this is (whichever direction you decide), the better your stories will be; the more thought-provoking as well as more entertaining....

 

[jackokent]

RIP Hoops. Oh, and look at Jackokent's post - he's a millionaire!

I wish!

But that's the point and I think Tau Zero made it much better than me, I don't need to be a millionaire. You can be happy with the life you are living whatever it is (obviously there are exceptions ie you can't feed yourself or people are oppressing you, you're ill etc). I haven't got the perfect life by any means if you were looking at it from the outside, I work silly hours that many people would hate. But for me it's perfect. This is why I can not imagine not wanting to prolong life... cause it's so great. Everything can be fun, even long boring meetings can be fun if you want to make them fun.

So if you are having such a great time why on earth would you not want to prolong it. And yes I know too much of a good thing can be bad, but I subscribe to the view that too much of a good thing can be wonderful.

There have been a number of views here expressed about death making you grow. I agree, but I doubt its the ONLY way to make you grow. Humans are resourceful, we'd find other ways, or at least we'd have a go. No one want's not to grow afterall, and just think how much growing we'd do if we had all that time.

And lastly, if we did all get cheesed off with immortality we could start looking for a cure. And we'd have ages to find one. Not like now where we're all looking for a cure for death and the clock's ticking.

In the imortal words of Robbie Williams "I'm not scared of dying, I just don't want to."

 

[HoopyFrood]

It's great having such a perfect life...but think, having to do that every day for eternity. Day in and day out, doing the same thing. Yes, it might seem like bliss at the moment, and it might still seem like that after 100 years or so...but what about after a million? Or a billion?

Immortality does sound like a wonderful idea, but it's just too much in my eyes. Life is, as the saying goes, too short at the moment, so I would happily accept a few more centuries...but I just couldn't go on for the rest of time. Even though the world is an amazing place, with so much to see and do...with the rest of eternity to do it all, even that will eventually become tiresome. And I think that change would probably stop occuring after a while...it may take a long time (but hell, you have a great deal of time on your hands) but eventually it will get to the point where all needs are catered for, humans would want for nothing, life would be perfect...but monotonous.

Nope, I have to say, I really would not accept immortality. Long life...yeah, bring it on...but not immortality. No thanks.

 

[jackokent]

It's great having such a perfect life...but think, having to do that every day for eternity. Day in and day out, doing the same thing. .

I'd take my chances, and life is only perfect becuase of the ups and down, not doing the same things day in day out. I am not talking about white sand, beauitful people perfect, I am talking about the fact that there are trees and books and things you've never seen and people you haven't met and problems to get over and arguments to make up from .. or not. That's what makes life perfect and maybe I have no imagination but I don't see how that could ever get boring.

However I can't imagine 10million years ahead it's just too far away so I'd take my chances and give it a go.

 

[Locksmith]

I'm just worried for the actuaries. I mean, they have a difficult enough job as it is, without everyone being immortal. You'd definitely have to work past 65, or even 68...

Anyway, I'd take the pill - I've got more stuff I'd like to do than I'm likely to have time for.

 

[mosaix]

Some good arguments here, for and against.

I do believe that, providing someone wasn't actually seeking death, that on thier deathbed most people given the choice of continuing to live would grasp it with both hands.

Everlasting life for me - no question.

BTW I think it has been calculated that, given the medical ability to extend life indefinately, average life span would be between 700 and 800 because of accidents.

 

[The Ace]

Enjoy it, but count me out.

 

[HoopyFrood]

I agree with Hoopy here.

Wow...I mean...wow...JD agreed with me on something?!.....Whoa....

Can everyone really imagine living for a billion years, 4 billion years, 10 billion years...etc? Doesn't that kind of concept just make your head spin? It's such an outrageously large amount of time that I don't think anyone could really grasp it properly. Nope, I just couldn't do it. I agree with Ace...count me out.

 

[SpaceShip]

In the imortal words of Robbie Williams "I'm not scared of dying, I just don't want to."

I think I'd want to die if it came to having the immortal words of Robbie Williams thrown at me!!

But another thought has just struck me - what if the world suddenly came to a halt and we all sort of went into reverse, gradually getting younger and not being able to do anything about it. Knowing things like the embarrassing thing you did on 22 April 1994 (and I suppost some joker will ask me what that was in my case!) was about to happen and you just had to take it.

 

[jackokent]

I think I'd want to die if it came to having the immortal words of Robbie Williams thrown at me!!

But another thought has just struck me - what if the world suddenly came to a halt and we all sort of went into reverse, gradually getting younger and not being able to do anything about it. Knowing things like the embarrassing thing you did on 22 April 1994 (and I suppost some joker will ask me what that was in my case!) was about to happen and you just had to take it.

Good point about Robbie Williams there.

The idea of going backward is just too complicated. How would that work? For instance, would you start off being sick at a party and then get steadily more sober?

 

[Redhawk]

Very interesting topic! Many different ways of looking at such an opportunity that's a given. Once not exactly mentioned that occurs to me is that anyone who is a Christian, already HAS taken "the pill" since that belief system entails Everlasting Life as part of the gift.

The argument after acceptance and that leap of faith is an on-going debate in some circles since most of the more fundamental faiths would dictate that you die, go into the ground, or are cremated...some believe you MUST go into the ground whole and shun cremation...and will rise again when Christ returns in the second coming. While many of the more "modern" or "airy fairy," New Age Christians are wont to believe we might be reincarnated or go more directly to heaven...in spirit form. (OH and FYI...the fundamentalist would probably consider ME to be of the Airy Fairy garden-tree-hugging type of Christian...I'm a bit of a hy-bred.*)

For the sake of keeping to the theme here...lets say that if you choose to accept Christ as your savior and that, you do then, in fact have eternal life. What do you do with THAT? Learn to play the harp really well? Play all day in a meadow of flowers with all the dogs you ever had throughout your earthly existence? Continue doing many of the same things, creatively, in heaven as you did on earth? Develop the voice of an Angel and sing in the heavenly choir?

Makes me wonder! I'd not given it much thought in terms of, What will I do all day...after day...after day...after day.....

* In my personal faith, I'm rock solid in my acceptance and relationship with Christ. Where I dive off the path is that I'm aware that the Bible was written by HUMANS, and while I would assume inspired by God, The Great Mystery...I also know it was RE-Written by yet more humans...and though I believe much of it...I kinda prefer to go to The Source my own self when I have questions. I've learned that I always get an answer....even if it's not one I would claim to "like" when I get it. I also don't believe that it's my "job" to shove God down someone else's throat and insist they are wrong in their beliefs...sharing ideas is one thing...but beliefs are personal and ya gots to find yur own! or don't...choosing not to make a choice...is also a choice!

I take a lot of things on faith. Mostly, that I don't have to have all the answers, or understand everything 100% because I believe that ultimately "someone else" knows what's going on, what should go on and what will go on. Sure we have free will, we make our choices...but far be it from ME to try and impose limitations or judgments on the Almighty! roflmao....ahhh...perhaps NOT is my thought on it.

But...would I want to live forever, in THIS body, in THIS time and place...with TIME itself racing along all around me, while I stay myself as I am....??? I don't think so...this is my NOW and it's wonderful, sometimes frustrating, sometimes frightening, sometimes tiring, sometimes so full of joy and love I think I'll burst from fullness...but it is the moment I am in. Where I'll be and what I'll be in two years, or ten, or 100 I don't know...but that I will be...I am assured. I would hate to think I had a better idea and miss out on what ever adventure is awaiting my arrival. I will be where I should be when I get there, without a lot of fiddle faddle on my part.

I agree with much already said here for NOT taking the pill...not for all the same reasons...but the ideas ring true for me none the less. If I can't get "something" of value accomplished in the time I am meant to be here...shame on me... Obviously, this decision would be as personal to each as many other decisions in life are found to be. With my "luck" I'd simply procrastinate all the more gleefully and still manage not to get anything done!

Great topic...great ideas and perspectives!

 

[Urien]

Thanks Redhawk good points. If one is of a religious persuasion then of course the life eternal is already guaranteed, hence the need for the pill vanishes. Unless of course one merely takes it as a another form of medical advance, (of which we routinely partake), and as we've being given intellects and curiousity, therefore part of the creators plan anyway.

 

[The Pelagic Argosy]

I'm just worried for the actuaries. I mean, they have a difficult enough job as it is, without everyone being immortal. You'd definitely have to work past 65, or even 68...

Heh heh. I'm sure Locksmith is being facetious here. But it makes me think of something. I think some people who are afraid of getting bored might be thinking of immortality as one long retirement: you might finally do some traveling, focus on a few hobbies, play a lot of bingo...and then what? Yeah, that would certainly be boring.

J.D. said awhile back that, even with our longer life expectancy, things haven't changed much in 150 years. Actually, I think things have changed dramatically. Back then, death wasn't associated with old age as it is now. People died of diseases that we now have cures for, complications from childbirth, mining accidents, etc. (Many of these things are still a problem in underdeveloped countries.) These days we die of cancer, heart attacks, strokes -- age-related illnesses that were unheard of back then.

People didn't think of "retirement" as a life stage like we do now. Some people, if they plan well financially and stay healthy, can expect to spend as many years in happy retirement as they did working. Society has shifted in dramatic ways as a result of our aging population. In some ways it has become a crisis, in terms of social security and health insurance, etc. But, in other ways, it's positive. People actually look forward to the "golden years:" the freedom, the traveling, spoiling the grandkids. Some people even start second careers. 65 is the new 40, you know. (Or maybe I've just seen too many menopause commercials.)

If such dramatic shifts have occured as a result of tacking 20-40 years to our life expectancy, just imagine how our concept of life would change if we could live for a thousand years or more. Why would you have to stop at one career? You could start out by, say, going to medical school. (You wouldn't have to rush through. You've got all the time in the world.) You could work for a 100 years or so as a doctor or researcher. Invest your money in the stock market. (Just think of how your money would grow if it were invested for centuries.) When you get sick of being a doctor, you could enter your first retirment. You could travel, or play bingo, or get a little cottage someplace quiet and just relax. Then, when you get bored with that, go back to school. Maybe this time around you want to study music or write that novel.

And forget traveling as we know it. You could live anywhere. You'd have plenty of time to learn the language. Live in Paris for 100 years. Then Japan. Then Brazil. Then...Mars?

What's that you say? After 500 years your spouse is getting on your nerves? Well, take a break from him or her. Separate or divorce and marry someone else. It doesn't have to be goodbye forever. The two of you are immortal and you're going to remain 30 years old forever. You can always reunite in the future. You're going to be very different people 1,000 years from now. You'll be like newlyweds all over again.

Yikes. You could wind up with dozens of children and as many spouses as Elizabeth Taylor.

 

[Tau Zero]

JD,

I read your post with interest as (again) your raise intelligent points. I won't pretend that i put very much thought on the social impact of such an event.

My thought were (obviously) on the pesonal choice to live this way. Many of the comments revolve around the eventual boredom of such an existance. But i don't think that will be a problem. If you're bored, and have all the time in the world, then find something new to do. Get a new job for a few decades, do something you've always wanted for a century or so. You'd never run out of things to do because new occupation and fields of study are always opening up.

And remember, as described, this immortaliy is not invulnerability. You can kill yourself any time you want to.

And finally, just judging from these posts, most people would not accept this opportunity. So there may not be very many immortals running around after all.

 

[Talysia]

If living forever meant always existing in people's memories - as a famous author, artist or something, for example - then that wouldn't be too bad, but I wouldn't actually want to physically live forever. Whilst it would give me plenty of time to write my stories, I think I'd miss my family too much. Having to watch everyone I know grow old whilst I stayed the same - I'd hate that.

 

[Who's Wee Dug]

'I'm not afraid of dying. Why should I be afraid? There's no reason for it. You've got to go sometime."

I'll bet 90% of you have heard this quote, but if somebody can name the source, I'll be very impressed.

As to death, I want something dramatic, probably gravity-related, maybe fiery. Real front-page stuff.

Skydiving Centenarian Brings Rush Hour To Standstill.
'I thought it was a meteor until I saw the gumboots' says shaken trucker

Oh yeah.

Pink Floyd!! it was on a track called The Great Gig in the Sky and it was the opening words spoken at the start of the track.The name of the album is The Dark Side of the Moon released in 1973.

 

[SpaceShip]

Very interesting topic! Many different ways of looking at such an opportunity that's a given. Once not exactly mentioned that occurs to me is that anyone who is a Christian, already HAS taken "the pill" since that belief system entails Everlasting Life as part of the gift.

Makes me wonder! I'd not given it much thought in terms of, What will I do all day...after day...after day...after day.....

Well - so far as your last sentence is concerned, the Bible says in 1 Corinthians 2:9 "Eye has not seen, nor ear heard, nor have entered in the heart of man, the things which God has prepared for those who love Him".

I look around at this world and think that there is just so much out there that I haven't seen or will see in this lifetime and wonder just what St Paul had in mind in the above verse. I reckon it will be very exciting!

 

[Redhawk]

Well - so far as your last sentence is concerned, the Bible says in 1 Corinthians 2:9 "Eye has not seen, nor ear heard, nor have entered in the heart of man, the things which God has prepared for those who love Him".

I look around at this world and think that there is just so much out there that I haven't seen or will see in this lifetime and wonder just what St Paul had in mind in the above verse. I reckon it will be very exciting!

Without sarcasm or sounding too ditsy...imagine the itinerary...ooooh...I mean...who else really KNOWS all the really cool places to see and things to do? Now...THAT'S a real trip! No "E" tickets there! All "A's"

 

[Faile]

To live forever? A question that is raised by many people and many relgions.
There is many who believe that only those who can afford it should be allowed this sort of thing if it ever came about.
Personally I would not like to live forever...maybe a few decades more but not for an enertity.
What would happen if you suffered from an illness or diability? Would the gift or enteral life cure you of it?