Jon Snow's true parentage...

[The Imp]

I think you are reading too much into it. Ned is simply too honourable to order the murder of a child who, at that point, really did seem to pose no threat to the kingdom except in Robert's mind. I do wonder how he'd have felt were he still hand and following Dany's exploits through the remaining books...

My wife, who has never read the books but is watching the series, think that Jon's father is Robert. I was about to tell her she was off base, then I realized that while it doesn't seem likely, it's not impossible, and would certainly make Jon as interesting a character as he would be if he is the product of a R+L union.

Out of the mouths of babes.

Not that my wife is a babe anymore. But don't tell her i said that

 

[digs]

I think you are reading too much into it.

I thought I might be. I'd have been interested to find out though - presuming R+L=J is true - how Ned felt about raising a Targ baby.

My wife, who has never read the books but is watching the series, think that Jon's father is Robert. I was about to tell her she was off base, then I realized that while it doesn't seem likely, it's not impossible, and would certainly make Jon as interesting a character as he would be if he is the product of a R+L union.

At first I thought that might cancel out the whole "seed is strong" theory, but then I realised Jon's dark hair and grey eyes could be interpreted as the Baratheon black hair and blue eyes. Plus "the seed is strong" doesn't necessarily mean it breeds true 100% of the time, or half of Westeros would have that colouring.

 

[devilsgrin]

I thought I might be. I'd have been interested to find out though - presuming R+L=J is true - how Ned felt about raising a Targ baby.


At first I thought that might cancel out the whole "seed is strong" theory, but then I realised Jon's dark hair and grey eyes could be interpreted as the Baratheon black hair and blue eyes. Plus "the seed is strong" doesn't necessarily mean it breeds true 100% of the time, or half of Westeros would have that colouring.

the "seed is strong" research was almost exclusively directed at studying the appearances of Baratheon-Lannister offspring. Tho, people like Mya Stone and Edric Storm are used as further evidence. I think if R+L = J, then Stark must be 'stronger'... since Targaryen features breed true in most instances... (though of course it not unheard of for them not to, if you've read the Hedge Knights...).

Personally i sincerely hope R+L=J is NOT true. I like Jon as a warging Ned Stark *******, not a half-dragon. If he does have such a revelation as to his parentage, i must promptly rename him gary stu and bid him adieu from my re-read POVs (i often skip certain characters on re-reads - oddly never Tyrion, even tho he's the character i dislike the most).
Regardless even if Jon IS a targ, he is still FAR more of a Stark in every way that matters.

Only Howland Reed can confirm the R+L=J anyway... No-one else could know. At least who is still alive - Varys maybe, he seems to know everything.

 

[Brian G Turner]

Or am I reading too much into it?

Robert fears that his hard won crown is under threat, but as Ned points out, the Dothraki are never going to cross the Narrow Sea under any normal circumstance - they hate and fear water, will not use ships - so Ned regards Robert's fear as unfounded, and the murder of children abhorrent.

But - if Ned thinks Jon is part-Targ, this will almost certainly put him on the defensive whenever Robert mentions killing Targ children. Especially after the horrific way Gregor Clegane dealt with the royal children previously.

If Dany is a threat, it is not because of the Dothraki, but because she can garner overseas support. Whether Braavos would launch against Westeros under Robert is probably doubtful, but even considering the idea has to be uncomfortable.

 

[digs]

the "seed is strong" research was almost exclusively directed at studying the appearances of Baratheon-Lannister offspring.

It wasn't necessarily aimed at Lannister offspring - just Baratheon vs others in general. The Baratheon bastards have a variety of mothers (and Gendry's was blonde, which is possibly a good test case against the Lannisters), which implies that Baratheon features are generally dominant. I don't remember any Baratheon bastards having Lannister mothers, so we never actually get a concrete test of the dominance between the two houses. Anyway, based on the little info we have, the whole premise of judging people according to appearance is a bit shaky. It is interesting though how often the features in the major Houses tend to breed true - Stark, Tully, Baratheon, Lannister, Targaryen all have distinctive colouring. To be fair though, the Targs are crazy inbreds, so that would help.

Only Howland Reed can confirm the R+L=J anyway... No-one else could know. At least who is still alive - Varys maybe, he seems to know everything.

Nitpicking, but there may be others who know. I mean, you're right - Howland Reed was the only other person there - but there is the chance that either he or Ned told other people about it. Benjen, for example, or the Reed children. Considering Ned didn't even tell Catelyn though, it seems unlikely that he would have told anyone else (and maybe that's part of what his promise to Lyanna entailed).

 

[TK-421]

GRRM could be setting us all up to believe that R+L=J and he may even reveal it somehow but in that "bittersweet" ending he has promised to the series, it could have all been a fraud concocted by some powers yet to be fully revealed.

 

[Needle]

It wasn't necessarily aimed at Lannister offspring - just Baratheon vs others in general. The Baratheon bastards have a variety of mothers (and Gendry's was blonde, which is possibly a good test case against the Lannisters), which implies that Baratheon features are generally dominant. I don't remember any Baratheon bastards having Lannister mothers, so we never actually get a concrete test of the dominance between the two houses. Anyway, based on the little info we have, the whole premise of judging people according to appearance is a bit shaky. It is interesting though how often the features in the major Houses tend to breed true - Stark, Tully, Baratheon, Lannister, Targaryen all have distinctive colouring. To be fair though, the Targs are crazy inbreds, so that would help.


Just to throw a little science into our fantasy, the black hair would always be dominant if the gene ran strong in the Baratheons (which it seems to). You would need 2 recessive blond genes to get blond, so if the Baratheons don't have one- always black!

For the Targs centuries of breeding in-house so to speak would lead to many with the double pair of blond, so a strong tendency (but not certainty) of the silver blond hair.

 

[Lofwyr]

Just to throw a little science into our fantasy, the black hair would always be dominant if the gene ran strong in the Baratheons (which it seems to). You would need 2 recessive blond genes to get blond, so if the Baratheons don't have one- always black!

For the Targs centuries of breeding in-house so to speak would lead to many with the double pair of blond, so a strong tendency (but not certainty) of the silver blond hair.

The only safe assumption we can make is that Baratheon black&blue are both dominant. We have no reason to believe allele dominance/recessiveness would mirror the real world for the cases we don't know. Basically...Targ silver&purple could very well be dominant even though that would be unlikely given real-world alleles.

 

[digs]

The only safe assumption we can make is that Baratheon black&blue are both dominant. We have no reason to believe allele dominance/recessiveness would mirror the real world for the cases we don't know. Basically...Targ silver&purple could very well be dominant even though that would be unlikely given real-world alleles.

Yeah, that's what I was thinking. Who knows what GRRM's genetic rules are. Maybe there's something about some of the more ancient Houses that makes their physical traits more dominant.

 

[Eulalia]

I wonder what the genetic inheritance for warging is? I think one can look too literally at this, but it's fun, too.

 

[Bazza]

My favorite topic! I am a firm believer in R + L = J , there has been mention in this post about Howland Reed being the only one left alive to verify the truth. But we sometimes forget that Ser Barristan the Bold is still alive and well. As Lord Commander of the Kingsguard during the Rebellion, he was most likely privy to the greatest secrets of the royal family, including the closely guarded reason why 3 of the most highly skilled Kingsguard members were found guarding a wayward Lady Stark , many kilometers south of the rest of the royal family, at the base of the famed Tower of Joy. (You can't deny that R+L = J haters!!!!)

GRRM most recently posted in his Not A Blog that Ser Barristan will be a new POV in the upcoming Dance of Dragons book. I am incredibly excited concerning this monumental event, will we finally get confirmation of the veracity of R+ L = J? As a diehard fan of this theory, I was burning for the depiction of the Tower of Joy scene in the HBO series. But with the omission of even the Three Eyed Crow dream (the real one), my hopes have died. However! When looking through the episode titles, Episode 9 is titled "Baelor". I assume this refers to Baelor the Blessed, an odd title for the show who tries to mute unessential characters. I've been thinking for weeks what would make this episode named "Baelor" ?

But I just started re-reading GOT. And when Ned Stark and Robert Baratheon discuss Ned's taboo subject of the proposed author of his *******, Robert states: "You are too hard on yourself Ned, you always were. Damn it, no woman wants Baelor the Blessed in her bed!"

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Will the secret be revealed???!!! Ohhh snap! We know HBO is making the circumspect themes of the book into much more direct descriptions of what is really going on, ie. Renly + Loras = Homosexual fun. I'm firmly convinced, I await the haters. Come forth and prove me wrong!

Also...GRRM has gone on record that genetic traits do not necessarily follow the scientific conventions of modern society. So basically...anything goes.

 

[digs]

If R+L=J is actually true, I doubt GRRM would let them reveal it in the television series before the books and steal all his thunder. Not to mention it's far too early to reveal those kinds of secrets. We don't even know who Rhaegar and Lyanna are yet. Why should we care if Jon is their son? Best to build it up for a few seasons so it has maximum impact.

 

[Brian G Turner]

But we sometimes forget that Ser Barristan the Bold is still alive and well. As Lord Commander of the Kingsguard during the Rebellion, he was most likely privy to the greatest secrets of the royal family, including the closely guarded reason why 3 of the most highly skilled Kingsguard members were found guarding a wayward Lady Stark , many kilometers south of the rest of the royal family, at the base of the famed Tower of Joy. (You can't deny that R+L = J haters!!!!)

GRRM most recently posted in his Not A Blog that Ser Barristan will be a new POV in the upcoming Dance of Dragons book.

Very interesting observation, and while I don't like the way GRRM has expanded the POV characters to date, I would actually look forward to a Barristan one, not least because he's directly connected with so much of the history that founds the entire aSoFaI story.

 

[Mesanna]

I'm with you Bazza! I don't expect any dramatic revelations, but I hope there are some hints and teasers about the Tower of Joy scene. (And I find the argument that there were three Kings Guards guarding Lyanna to be significant.)

Digs, they have mentioned Lyanna a few times on the show and Rhaegar too, but I doubt if the non-book people will really have any idea what happened. Some will understand that Ned's sister was killed by some guy that Robert hated, but that's probably about it. If they're going to make more of this storyline, they're going to have to show a lot more of the back story.

Bring on Barristan the Bold!

 

[TK-421]

We also need to think about where a BFS POV may lead us.

He is currently serving Dany after having been dismissed from the Kingsguard.

How many POV's are already heading Dany's way: Tyrion, Quentyn and Victarion. We know two of those will be in ADWD.

This could make for interesting reading if the purpose of BFS' POV is not to reveal some great secret but rather serves some other purpose if Dany sends him away on some task or quest.

 

[Brian G Turner]

Barristan comes so loaded with baggage that he doesn't need to. I suspect he's going to fill in some blanks, though, reminiscing. But you're right - interesting people coming around Dany.

 

[Eulalia]

GRRM asked BFS to slice open the Meerense knot.

 

[Mesanna]

I might be misremembering, but didn't BFS say to Dany in Feast for Crows that he was going to talk to her about her family (but it wasn't the right time or something?) There is sooo much that I want to know about Rhaegar, and not just the Lyanna story. Rhaegar is at the centre of everything. So many of the plots extend directly from him or his actions.

 

[hadd]

I might be misremembering, but didn't BFS say to Dany in Feast for Crows that he was going to talk to her about her family (but it wasn't the right time or something?) There is sooo much that I want to know about Rhaegar, and not just the Lyanna story. Rhaegar is at the centre of everything. So many of the plots extend directly from him or his actions.

Hasn't BFS told Dany already some stories about Rhaegar? I might be mistaken but in my memory I remember some bits about BFS talking about how melodramatic Rhaegar was etc...

 

[Needle]

I'm with you Mesanna, I hope BFS will fill in the blanks on Rheagar for Dany (and us of course!). He has told her some but really very little. I don't think there is anyone alive who knows more of the story from any better view than BFS. He as Kingsguard has intimate knowledge of the Targs, the others of the guard, Robert, Jaime and who knows what else! He also has a moral compass that so many of the others lack yet I don't feel he is as hidebound (sorry Pern reference there!) as Ned was.