Jon Snow's true parentage...

[Culhwch]

I've been thinking for weeks what would make this episode named "Baelor" ?

Isn't the sept in King's Landing called the Great Sept of Baelor, or some such? And doesn't a rather significant event happen on the steps outside said sept quite late in the series? I'd imagine that's where the reference comes from...

 

[The Imp]

I'm with you Mesanna, I hope BFS will fill in the blanks on Rheagar for Dany (and us of course!). He has told her some but really very little. I don't think there is anyone alive who knows more of the story from any better view than BFS. He as Kingsguard has intimate knowledge of the Targs, the others of the guard, Robert, Jaime and who knows what else! He also has a moral compass that so many of the others lack yet I don't feel he is as hidebound (sorry Pern reference there!) as Ned was.

I'd like to get Howland Reed and BFS toether and hear the tales they could tell, and see the gaps they might be able to fill in for each other.

 

[devilsgrin]

It wasn't necessarily aimed at Lannister offspring - just Baratheon vs others in general. The Baratheon bastards have a variety of mothers (and Gendry's was blonde, which is possibly a good test case against the Lannisters), which implies that Baratheon features are generally dominant. I don't remember any Baratheon bastards having Lannister mothers, so we never actually get a concrete test of the dominance between the two houses. Anyway, based on the little info we have, the whole premise of judging people according to appearance is a bit shaky. It is interesting though how often the features in the major Houses tend to breed true - Stark, Tully, Baratheon, Lannister, Targaryen all have distinctive colouring. To be fair though, the Targs are crazy inbreds, so that would help.


Nitpicking, but there may be others who know. I mean, you're right - Howland Reed was the only other person there - but there is the chance that either he or Ned told other people about it. Benjen, for example, or the Reed children. Considering Ned didn't even tell Catelyn though, it seems unlikely that he would have told anyone else (and maybe that's part of what his promise to Lyanna entailed).

Just on the Baratheon-Lannister seed issue... Jon Arryn's research, which Ned "inherits" is heavily reliant upon the descriptions and portraits of Baratheon-Lannister children. I believe its in a book that the maesters have, keeping track of the genealogies of westeros, and in particular Great House inter-marriages.
I didn't realise Genry was blond... i was always under the impression he was dark haired... may have to finish another reread of GoT...

 

[digs]

Gendry is dark haired - I meant his mother was blonde.

 

[TK-421]

Isn't the sept in King's Landing called the Great Sept of Baelor, or some such? And doesn't a rather significant event happen on the steps outside said sept quite late in the series? I'd imagine that's where the reference comes from...

In Arya's first chapter in AFFC when she sails into Braavos and we get a full description of the city, she notes that the Titan's statue that they pass underneath at the mouth of the harbour is many times bigger than King Baelor's status in King's Landing.

He's only a little bigger than King Baelor's status in King's Landing, she told herself when they were still well off to sea....Her neck craned upwards. Baelor the Blessed would not reach his knee. He could step over the walls of Winterfell.

 

[Tansy]

Just doing a re-read of GOT and I hate to admit it, but it does seem likely that Lyana died in childbirth as a result of being "raped" by Rhaegar, and Ned's promise was that he would take her body and her child back to Winterfell and raise him as his own and tell no-one...

 

[viZion]

Thanks viZion I would appreciate the link if you have it. I have become just a little obsessed with the matter!

Argh! Sorry it's taken me so long to respond. Here's the link I was referring to:

http://towerofthehand.com/essays/chrisholden/jon_snows_parents.html

It's the only page I've found that lays out all of the theories in a nice, orderly fashion. It's a lot better than reading huge forum threads and trying to piece it all together!

 

[Needle]

Thanks viZion! That was a great link, it lays it all out. I think I had most of the evidence (in my mind anyway) except I missed this one "

He remembered Rhaegar's infant son, the red ruin of his skull, and the way the king had turned away, as he had turned away in Darry's audience hall not so long ago. He could still hear Sansa pleading, as Lyanna had pleaded once.

Both women Eddard loved pleading for those they loved?

​

 

[Lofwyr]

Hasn't BFS told Dany already some stories about Rhaegar? I might be mistaken but in my memory I remember some bits about BFS talking about how melodramatic Rhaegar was etc...

I think BFS begins to talk of Rhaegar to Dany in ASoS. He tells a few things and then stops with the 'more info to come at another time' line.

What he's told her was basically: Rhaegar was really smart, learned things very well the first time he was taught them. Loved his books and spent time in study while young, eventually read something that caused him to come declare something like "it seems I must learn the sword". BFS basically set Rhaegar up as a real dragon, much like we'd expect Aegon the Conqueror was. Rhaegar's "Targ coin" landed on the "not insane and really awesome" side...Viserys landed on the "crazy asshole" side.

 

[Boaz]

Right you are, Lofwyr. But BFS, as much as we all love him, is the ultimate servitor. He lives and breathes the concepts of divine right, breeding, and nobility. To BFS, the Targaryens are god-kings. He readily accepts the Targaryen's faults because he loves their glory. The greater the glory for the king, the greater the glory for their chief servant. By saying that the gods flip a coin for each Targaryen, he absolves Aerys II and Viserys of all accountability and he claims that Dany has a divine mandate to rule. That's a scary philosophy.

 

[Ursa major]

Ah, so the F in BFS really stands for "Faithful (to the Targaryens)".

 

[Boaz]

Correct. And you already know what BS means.

 

[digs]

Haha. Genius.

 

[KrimzonStriker]

Right you are, Lofwyr. But BFS, as much as we all love him, is the ultimate servitor. He lives and breathes the concepts of divine right, breeding, and nobility. To BFS, the Targaryens are god-kings. He readily accepts the Targaryen's faults because he loves their glory. The greater the glory for the king, the greater the glory for their chief servant. By saying that the gods flip a coin for each Targaryen, he absolves Aerys II and Viserys of all accountability and he claims that Dany has a divine mandate to rule. That's a scary philosophy.

Its not without facts to back it up though, and his opinion of Rhaegar is much more demure then edifiying sounding much more like they were based on actual observations that were less flattering, his bookish and melancholy nature and that he actually lost tournaments, then say Visery's more grander tales to Dany. And he was not one to skip over the faults of those he served, acknowledging that Aerys was very much mad and Viserys likely followed in Aerys footsteps.

Its not without basis from other opinions as well, Jorah goes as far as to say that Rhaegar was the Last Dragon. Cersis adds in A Feast For Crows that Rhaegar was very much loved by the people, more so then even Tywin despite his accomplishments as Hand of the King. Half the realms once sided with Rhaegar, despite the madness of his father, that they might choose to rise in his memory once again is not a far stretch, especially with the turmoil currently embroiling Westbros.

 

[Wiggum]

I say we go CSI on this, what do we know for fact?

 

[Boaz]

KS, welcome! I think that Jorah's comments on the common folk, in AGOT, were accurate. At least I think it was Jorah that said that the people pray for rain for their crops, healthy children, short winters and to be left out of the Game, but that they always suffer from the Game.

But I do think that there are certain qualities that the Targaryens have that the common people find fascinating. Many people, common and noble, like seeing their monarch appearing otherworldy with silver-white hair and purple eyes. It makes them feel they are almost ruled by gods. The second quality relates to the first... intermarriage of the Targs. They keep their bloodline pure by marrying brother to sister... and this is such a breaking of taboo that the people are mesmerized rather than disgusted. The third bizarre and incredible thing the Targaryens bring are dragons. After they lost their dragons, they lost the throne. But now that Dany has dragons, who knows? The Targaryen disregard for conventions appeals to many people because it seems the Targaryens are supremely confident and divinely blessed.

 

[KrimzonStriker]

The common people are one thing, but I believe that Ser Selmy's comments, backed somewhat by Robert himself is in regards to the noble houses that flew Rhaegar's banner, but were forced to kneel, might start longing for the return of the Dragons to bring order to the chaos and current power vacuum in Westbros.

Politically speaking, I believe this puts Jon in prime position, because even with Dany and her dragons she lacks the ability (from what we know) to carry on the Targaryen bloodline now, Jon would be the only one left who could continue the dynasty, if he is indeed Rhaegar's son. As for the common people, I basically share your opinion about their sentiment, but that all aside I do still get the impression that Rhaegar's image above all is what would prove to be the rallying cry, moreso then the Targaryen's, because of the fact that he most of all closely embodied the ideals you just described in the people's recent memory, the fact that he died only enhances that for people's longing of what could have been, as Ceresi so eloquently ponders in AFFC.

 

[Boaz]

Dany is Aerys II's last child. Mayhaps Jon is Aerys II's grandson. And mayhaps Aegon is still alive. And going further and further into the realm of crackpot threories and pure silliness, Aerys II may have fathered Tyrion, Jaime, and Cersei... which makes Myrcella and Tommen half-Targs, too... and even Varys may be a long lost Targ. And I think that Middlefinger's grandfather may have been a Targaryen *******. But I'm fairly certain that Sam is not a Targaryen.

 

[Culhwch]

But Hodor might be.

 

[KrimzonStriker]

Bah, you know Aery's, he'd never stoop so low to father kids from the lowly

But seriously, I think R+L=J is probably one of the most solid theories I've ever come across, it just fits too well, and I'm hopeful we'll learn more come DWTD as we switch back to Dany and Jon's stories.