Anyone interested in a Heinlein reading group?

[j d worthington]

JD..."despite some factual errors"...interesting! I don't know if I want to ask if you have more info regarding this statement, or whether I just want to read it and see if I can figure them out.

Here's a link giving a listing of errors, should you be interested. However, I think they overstate the case; I'd say the book is still both a valuable and insightful read, and quite enjoyable:

http://www.nitrosyncretic.com/rah/ftp/stoverr.pdf

 

[TTBRAHWTMG]

Wow…just sat down and read the first chapter of the edited or revised (older) version, and then the first chapter of the re-released newer version. If you have access to it, I strongly suggest getting a 1990 or later. The edited version is quite choppy, and unedited sounds more like Heinlein. I’ll give you the first page to show what I mean.

Edited:

Were they truly intelligent? By themselves, that is? I don’t know and I don’t know how we can ever find out.
If they were not truly intelligent, I hope I never live to see us tangle with anything at all like them which is intelligent. I know who will lose. Me. You. The so-called human race.

For me it started too early on July 12, ’07, with my phone shrilling in a frequency guaranteed to peel off the skull. The sort of phone my Section uses is not standard; the audio relay was buried surgically under the skin back of my left ear – bone conduction. I felt around my person, then recalled that I had left it in my jacket across the room. “All right,” I growled. “I hear you. Shut off that damned noise.”
“Emergency,” a voice said in my ear. “Report in person.”
I told him what to do with his emergency.
“Report to the Old Man,” the voice persisted, “at once.”
That was different. “Moving,” I acknowledged and sat up with a jerk that hurt my eyeballs. I went into the bath, injected a grain of “Gyro” into my arm, then let the vibro shake me apart while the drug put me together. I stepped out a new man, or at least a good mock-up of one, and got my jacket.

Unedited:

Were they truly intelligent? By themselves, that is? I don’t know and I don’t know how we can ever find out. I’m not a lab man; I’m an operator.
With the Soviets it seems certain that they did not invent anything. They simply took the communist power-for-power’s-sake and extended it without any “rotten liberal sentimentality” as the commissars put it. On the other hand, with animals they were a good deal more than animal.
(It seems strange no longer to see dogs around. When we finally come to grips with them, there will be a few million dogs to avenge. And cats. For me, one particular cat.)
If they were not truly intelligent, I hope I never live to see us tangle with anything like them which is intelligent. I know who will lose. Me. You. The so-called human race.

For me it started much too early on July 12, ’07, with my phone shrilling in a frequency guaranteed to peel off the skull. I felt around my person, trying to find the thing to shut it off, then recalled that I had left it in my jacket across the room. “All right,” I growled. “I hear you. Shut off that damned noise.”
“Emergency,” a voice said in my ear. “Report in person.”
I told him what to do with his emergency. “I’m on a seventy-two-hour pass.”
“Report to the Old Man,” the voice persisted, “at once.”
That was different. “Moving,” I acknowledged and sat up with a jerk that hurt my eyeballs. I found myself facing a blonde. She was sitting up, too, and staring at me round-eyed.
“Who are you talking to?” she demanded.
I stared back, recalling with difficulty that I had seen her before. “Me? Talking?” I stalled while trying to think up a good lie, then, as I came wider awake, realized that it did not have to be a very good lie as she could not possibly have heard the other half of the conversation. The sort of phone my section uses is not standard; the audio relay was buried surgically under the skin back of my left ear – bone conduction. “Sorry, babe,” I went on. “Had a nightmare. I often talk in my sleep.”

Just a wee bit different, eh?

 

[Pyan]

And that's just the first three or four paras, TT? Wow - sounds like a completely different book! How many more pages in the unedited version?

 

[TTBRAHWTMG]

It's hard to compare...the two I'm looking at right now are actually 347 in the old version and 340 in the new...but the font is completely different (smaller in the new version), so I don't know how many pages that makes up for.
Now I have no choice but to read both versions, see what it does to the flavour. I guess if you guys are on old, I'll read that first, and then I'll do the new for the comparison later. Oh, wait, Razorback is probably on the new version...right Razor? Maybe I'll keep going back and forth...will make it a little jumpy for me, but will probably help highlight the differences more.
Geeze, now I don't know what I want to do!

 

[Pyan]

Thanks for looking anyway, TT - I'll just have to find the unedited version, I think!

 

[j d worthington]

I've requested a copy from the library here. Should be available soon. But after looking at that, I'm going to definitely have to invest in a copy of my own. Damn! I hate it when they go mucking about with a writer's work -- even with his/her permission/cooperation. I'm more than a bit of a purist, I'm afraid.....

 

[TTBRAHWTMG]

There is probably a good essay on how editorial control affects an author's work, just by comparing the two versions of this book alone. (or so I assume from the first chapter...I guess the two versions could be the exact same from here out)

Added: Nope...quick peak around...first paragraph of each chapter...last paragraph of book...tonnes of changes!

 

[j d worthington]

Well, as something of a Lovecraft scholar, I can tell you that the changes that drifted in over the years with his work, once Joshi went back to the original sources and put out his critical editions, made one heck of a difference... and most of those were small, subtle things; but they altered the entire feel or thrust of a work when taken in toto. Bradbury, about 25 years ago, when looking through later editions of his work, was wont to say "I didn't write that!" and, going to earlier editions... no, he didn't. And Joyce's Ulysses had over 1000 editorial alterations and such in it, which, according to those who've read both, makes it an entirely different book. (Finnegan's Wake had a like number, as I recall -- and this in a book where the entire reading of the thing hinges on a single bit of how to punctuate a sentence!)

I'll give you an example off the top of my head. The ending of "Life-Line" by Heinlein. I'm not talking about Pinero's death... I'm talking about what comes after. Now... rewrite that altering the final two lines. Keep the basic gist, but alter the way it's said. You end up with an entirely different emphasis, and lose a lot of the complexity of that deceptively simple ending. That final twist of the tail through the comment at the end is a punch to the jaw, when you realize what that little, irrelevant comment -- being made at that precise moment -- means. It's a quiet, subdued thing, but it goes for the jugular. Handled differently, it could just be a flat non sequitur, utterly pointless. It's like Howard Rodman's "The Man Who Went to the Moon -- Twice"; quiet, seemingly meandering, somewhat elegiac, and it seems to be a rather weak tale... then you go back again, and realize just what he's saying there... and it's like a full body blow. That's what a good writer does well; and what bad editing can completely foul up.

Robert E. Howard has suffered a lot from that, too... which is why these new critical editions of his work, beginning in the centennial of his birth, are causing critics to completely re-evaluate how they look at what he wrote.

My take is that Heinlein was a much better writer than what he's sometimes given credit for. Even where I disagree with him most, shorn of the editorial changes and poor copy-editing his work often went through, he generally knew exactly how to achieve what he set out to achieve, and how to stroke the emotional chords he meant to do -- if you read his work carefully. (Sometimes -- especially in his very early work -- he hit a clunker; but not that often.) Agree with his views or not, he was a good writer... which is why his work continues to stir up discussion after so many years....

 

[TTBRAHWTMG]

This is embarassing confession time:
1...I have no idea how good an author Heinlein was. I don't have the tools to evaluate his work as literature. I don't have the breadth of experience in reading that you, or others on here have. I do believe he was an amazing observer of humanity, that he had a gift for social commentary, a gift for provoking analytic thought, for instilling a sense of self-respect and personal responsibility into his characters in such a way that it entertained you to the point where you almost forgot he was preaching at you. I KNOW that he had the ability to reach inside ME and make ME want to improve myself.
2...This one is difficult, I've been avoiding it. I've never read any Lovecraft. I cringe even writing this one. Rather than flaying me (teasing...I'm confident you wouldn't) what Lovecraft would be the best stepping stone?

 

[j d worthington]

Eh? Why the embarrassment? There are tons of writers out there whose works I've not read; may never get around to (certainly with the backlog I've got now, anyway). As for my comments on Heinlein... I was just thinking about that aspect, having reread "Life-Line" the other day... how he used a very simple approach to elicit some very complex emotions. I don't think it's something he consciously sat down and wrote and rewrote to get that ending (though, of course, he may have done); just that he was well-read enough, and talented enough, to be able to strike those chords beautifully, with such seeming simplicity.

Also... I overanalyze....

Lovecraft... that's a difficult one to answer, as different people find different stories to their taste. For most, though, I'd not suggest beginning with At the Mountains of Madness; The Case of Charles Dexter Ward might be a very good novel or, if you're in the mood for more of a fantasy piece, The Dream-Quest of Unknown Kadath. But probably best to start with some of his earlier short stories before getting into the Mythos stuff (which begins, really, with "The Call of Cthulhu" in 1926 -- though he continued to write other types of tales for some time still. On the other hand, "Cthulhu" was my first real encounter with HPL, and it obviously stuck. I'd also highly recommend "The Colour out of Space"; very nice, that.

Penguin Classics have a nice three-volume set that has most of his work. But, before you decide whether or not to spring for something like that:

The H. P. Lovecraft Library

And:

The H. P. Lovecraft Library

I'd suggest using the first to link to his stories, as there seems to be a glitch in the second with some -- try linking to "The Alchemist", for instance, in HTML format, and it takes you to "Azathoth" (though PDF seems to be fine). But the second also has quite a bit of his poetry and some of his essays, including his treatise Supernatural Horror in Literature", along with a bibliography for that which includes links to quite a few of the tales he discusses.

The first link, as it's chronological, begins with his juvenilia (from age 7 up), so you may want to skip the first few and start with "The Tomb" -- although "The Beast in the Cave" is very good for a 15-year-old, and "The Alchemist" isn't any too shabby for a teenager, either.

 

[Pyan]

Also... I overanalyze....

No, jd? Really??

Nothing to be embarrassed about, TT - I considered myself well-read in SF/F until I found this forum - now everyday I find there are authors mentioned that I've never even heard of, let alone read.
But that's the main reason I keep coming back* - after years of coasting comfortably, reading and re-reading the authors I knew when was young(!), I can almost feel my brain stretching to accommodate new ideas and new writers. And that can't be a bad thing, can it?
I can see the point of view of Prof Bernado de la Paz, now!


*Well, almost the main reason, says he, quickly!

 

[j d worthington]

No, jd? Really??

Nothing to be embarrassed about, TT - I considered myself well-read in SF/F until I found this forum - now everyday I find there are authors mentioned that I've never even heard of, let alone read.
But that's the main reason I keep coming back* - after years of coasting comfortably, reading and re-reading the authors I knew when was young(!), I can almost feel my brain stretching to accommodate new ideas and new writers. And that can't be a bad thing, can it?


*Well, almost the main reason, says he, quickly!

Yes... and I note that little addition is in orange....

 

[Pyan]

Yes - I want to stay healthy and unscorched, thank you!

 

[TTBRAHWTMG]

JD/Pyan: Thanks for not flaying...lol...and for the tips on where to get started. I guess its the inferiority complex kicking in. I've read little other than Heinlein, any collateral reading he has directly inspired, and the mountainous volumes of technical works required over the years to get whatever job I needed done, done. I recognize this as a weakness, a hole in my personal development. When I hear names that even I recognize as greats, it triggers that little part of me that is embarassed about how little I've read. Anyway, my problem, and I'll try to control my discomfort in future.
As far as the stretching, I empathize completely. Thankfully I haven't recognized any physical consequences yet.

Chris: You weren't kidding about how difficult it is to find English books over there. I spoke to Elizabeth at the Bookworm (the one on rue Sismondi) and she has confirmed that she does not have a copy. I tracked down a couple of other lines, and have been informed that the Bookworm and a place called "Off The Shelf" are the only real possibilities inside Geneva. Contacted "Off The Shelf" and they do not have a copy either...only Door Into Summer and Troopers. The last hope, I've been informed, is a place called The American Library. Have you heard of this place? Something about it being in a church and hard to find or something. If you know where it is, great, if not, let me know and I'll get more details. Other than that, you're looking at new...which you may want to consider on this one just because the 1990 and later version seems to be far superior, or atleast vastly different, than earlier versions.

Hey guys, a question about Chronicles...still a rookie. Can you quote from one thread into another, or do you just cut and paste? I'm sure I could figure it out if I poked around enough, and read through all the rules, etc. Hoping for a shortcut though!

 

[Liz Pf]

I go away for a few days* and ... whoo, boy!

Count me in on the book group. I've read many of my Heinleins to death (the old Berkeley paperbacks, with the self-destructing glue), and I've committed large passages to memory, but I haven't read many in quite a while.

So there's an uncut Puppet Masters? Great! I've preferred every restored work to the cut ones. [Confession time — I never cared for Stranger. I found the cut version quite weak. While the uncut still isn't a favorite of mine, all of a sudden the story makes sense, and the characters have motivations for what they do.]

As soon as we decide on a book, I'll have my husband get it for me, assuming we don't have it at home. [He's active in the local SF club, which has an incredible library. I'm spoiled ]

--Liz

----
* Some of you know I've taken up designing t-shirts, many with RAH quotes. Well, my print-on-demand house announced some major changes that I didn't like, so I spent a few days switching PODs. Then there are income taxes, and a seminar I'm giving next weekend, and oh yes, my two hellions ...

 

[TTBRAHWTMG]

Count me in on the book group. I've read many of my Heinleins to death (the old Berkeley paperbacks, with the self-destructing glue), and I've committed large passages to memory, but I haven't read many in quite a while.

Great to hear you are in. Particularly nice to have a woman's point of view...this little group is rounding out nicely.

As soon as we decide on a book, I'll have my husband get it for me, assuming we don't have it at home. [He's active in the local SF club, which has an incredible library. I'm spoiled ].

I think we have settled on Puppet Masters for our maiden voyage. It seems none of us have read it in ages, and Razor not at all yet.

* Some of you know I've taken up designing t-shirts, many with RAH quotes. Well, my print-on-demand house announced some major changes that I didn't like, so I spent a few days switching PODs. Then there are income taxes, and a seminar I'm giving next weekend, and oh yes, my two hellions ...

I assume that is why your site looked so different when I checked it out yesterday than it did when I looked the first time. Does your new source offer you a lot more variety? I didn't notice all of the peripherals last time, mouse pads, etc. I am a little unique (or maybe not) in that I don't like wearing anything with a logo on it...except my own logo of course. That severely limits my casual wear. Little tired of the plain t-shirt. Heinlein, however, is someone I would never mind advertising! So there is me, and then there is those cute little butterfly shirts...it would just be so fitting for my 5 yr old girl! I noticed that you had one Heinlein shirt the first time I looked, and then a few options the next time I looked. I've decided to wait a bit to see what other Heinlein you add so that I can get a variety in one order. I'll keep peeking!

 

[Razorback]

Wow, this thread has gotten a lot of action over the last couple of days! I hope to respond to more of the comments later, but for now I’ll respond to the edited vs. unedited question.

TT, I’m around three quarters through an edited version. I didn’t realize there was an unedited one until I saw j.d.’s post. As you said, the edited one is very choppy. I’m going to keep an eye out for the restored version, but I don’t know if I will locate one anytime soon.

If everyone is amenable, I say read whatever version you have available and let’s charge ahead has best we can. I suggested The Puppet Masters because recent comments on one of the Heinlein threads had sparked my interest and I already had a copy in my to-be-read pile. Nonetheless, it won’t hurt my feelings if the group wants to start with a different book instead.

 

[Liz Pf]

I assume that is why your site looked so different when I checked it out yesterday than it did when I looked the first time. Does your new source offer you a lot more variety?

Shameless (well, maybe a little shame) plug ahead.

Yes, this is a new provider. This one has more styles of shirts in far more colors, at slightly lower prices. The other provider had more non-clothing items, though -- but they changed their marketing strategy in a way that did not help me.

I'm not much for advertising on shirts -- even my own ads! but sometimes I like a bit of design or obscureness. If you'd like, I could put up a line of unprinted shirts, just for you

And if you think I'm just selling, I also:
- am full-time mom to two young wildcats, and wife to a Mad Engineer
- am fixing up our house, which currently means I'm killing mice, fixing toilets, and refinishing the mantel
- learning jujitsu
- preparing to give a presentation at a gifted education conference — on knitting!
And probably a few more things I can't remember.

Yes, my role model for a proper housewife was drawn directly from RAH.

--Liz
Cartesian Bear Industries

 

[Pyan]

Yes, my role model for a proper housewife was drawn directly from RAH.

--Liz
Cartesian Bear Industries

Tut, tut, for shame - In your spare time, you should also be bailing out NASA, running a royal foetus out to The Realm, volunteering to be a guinea-pig to a space slug, freeing Luna, recovering the Egg of the Phoenix, and bossing the Time Corps, preferably simultaneously.

 

[TTBRAHWTMG]

I'm not much for advertising on shirts -- even my own ads! but sometimes I like a bit of design or obscureness. If you'd like, I could put up a line of unprinted shirts, just for you

I've got all the unprinted, plain shirts I could want...it's the Heinlein aphorisms (one of my favourite new words, JD) that I would like, so that I have some shirts with something on it for once. I refuse to wear any corporate advertising, but I'm sick of having nothing on there too! I like the Pantheistic Solipsism shirt shown on your site, but was waiting for a few more. If you can just one-off them, PM me and I'll come up with a short list...I'd rather give my money to someone who is willing to sit down and read an Heinlein with me, than some stranger in the mall...but that's just me! Cronyism at its finest! I'll probably get slammed!