Origins within Midkemia

[The Upright Man]

Just edited a spoiler warning on your last post mate - my first moderator action!!

I am now reading A Darkness of Sethanon mate. Do we ever find out the identity of the Uprightman? He is such a cool character. I imagine him to perhaps be a known person - not necessarily known to the reader but at least somebody of note. Please do not tell me his name if this is true. I am glad to see Thomas and Pug finally meeting up in this book, since they left Crydee there has a been little to no interaction between the two.

thers lysle from the serpentwar and the original jimmy met on the ned of the Krondor:TotG

 

[Hocho]

The uprightman i believe was mentioned by Duke James while talking to Lysle Riggers in Rage of a Demon King. It was said he was a baker (i think) of no paticular significance.But interestingly Dash(Duke James grandson)has become the new uprightman while i believe his brother has become duke of krondor,both has become one half of his(DukeJames) personality.Also in The Kings Buccaneer Tomas's parents are mention as Calis visits them regularly.

 

[Hocho]

To Arch-Indar, Macross was notorious for fibbing and embelishing who's to say he wasnt lying about Pug's Hertiage.Maybe even to spare him of some offal truth.

 

[woodsman]

The original leader of the mockers was, I beleive, the Squareman who first created mothers. After him came the first Uprightman who was lysle and Jimmy's father. He was disposed by a lutenant Known only as the Virtuousman.
Lysle (Jimmy the hands' brother) replaced him and was known as the Sagaciousman- see rise of a Merchant Prince- he later renamed himslef the Uprightman at Duke James request to indicate he would aid the Duke.

Lysle died during the battle of Krondor and was replaced by Dashel Jameson: his great nephew, who presumably still leads the mockers during the Conclave of Shadows Triology, although he is not mentioned. I think names are mentioned in the books but cannot remember them.

Is the temple of Arhch-Indar ever mentioned aain significantly in the series, i haven't finished reading the Darkwar books yet but just wondered if it was maentioned.

 

[Fake Vencar]

The Arch-Indar temple isn't significantly mentioned again i am afraid. Well, i don't remember it anyway

 

[woodsman]

Damn,
Oh well thanks anyways. I kind of enjoyed the religoin/philosophy discussions aspect of those books.

 

[Balinor]

SPOILERS

There are several leaders of the Mockers... But The Upright Man identity is never revealed...

I thought we found out that he was Jimmy's dad (ok although no names at least we have a relationship)

 

[woodsman]

Yeah one of them was, the orignal uprightman ( see me post above). I dont think it does give a name, but does give a profession and I think the book needed is Rage of a Daemon King from the SerpentWar Saga.

 

[Fake Vencar]

Rage of a Demon King is the right book. I'm just about to read it, so i'll post the name when i get there abouts

 

[Fake Vencar]

RoaDK, page 259 in my version.

James and Lysle are brothers. There mother was murdered when James was a toddler, Lysle was 7. Lysle was packed off to Romney, James raised by Mockers. Lysle found it funny that his foster parents raised him to work as a thief in Krondor. Their father was the original Upright Man, a surly and evil chandler called Donald, who had a shop down by the south point near the palace.

 

[woodsman]

Cheers Vencar, Thats settled that! I seem to remember in the same book that Nakor suggests that the Gods gradually take on some of the aspects of those who worship them? Is this the case or am I just dreaming stuff up?

 

[Fake Vencar]

It is the case. He talks about cavemen worshiping fire, which turns into a god of fire: Prandur.

 

[woodsman]

I'm not crzy then...

Thanks again for that, I ought to read the serpentwar again!, spose I should read Darkwar first though.

 

[Fat DeMon]

nakor says that basically the gods are thee because people made them, the fire example - they create the identity of prandur, which is a conscious being. when people stop thinking this way aka they stop worshiping, the god dies (like the good goddess and sarig)

 

[Fake Vencar]

Nakor's always right so what about the two blind gods of creation? Surely then someone or some race must have been around before the universe started: the city forever? Or was the universe just the Big Bang and there were no gods of creation?

 

[woodsman]

Wern't the Gods also beings created by the universe to try and get a greater sense of self, this is what Nakor conjectures in that the universe is THE god and everything else is an experiment so this God can learn. Perhaps this is how the two blind gods came about which the Valheru then worshiped to maintain them.

I don't think Nakor is always right. When he says he knows something, then it's true, however crazy it might sound. However sometimes in RoDK and SoaBC he puts forward theories which he cannot confirm, after all he has now given up the codex of the god of knowledge so can no longer answer those questions when he wishes.

 

[Fake Vencar]

My mistake, Nakor isn't always right like i said. I've just read RoaDK so i should remember but i didn't...

I think Nakor says that the universe isn't the God, the God made this universe to try and experiment like you said.

 

[Balinor]

Their father was the original Upright Man, a surly and evil chandler called Donald, who had a shop down by the south point near the palace.

I am the shadow that stalks your every move
I am the one that controls the people that can murder you in your sleep
I am the one with more power than those who rule your lives
I am ...... Donald

 

[Hawke]

nakor says that basically the gods are thee because people made them, the fire example - they create the identity of prandur, which is a conscious being. when people stop thinking this way aka they stop worshiping, the god dies (like the good goddess and sarig)

Wasn't the Good Goddess killed which made people stop worshipping her?

There's still fragments and "dreams" of the Good goddess around, I believe Kaspar meets a "dream" of the good goddess who gives him a token so that he can speak to the gods in The Exile's Return....

I know that there are now worshipers of the Good Goddess just not enough to make her return yet...at the end of the Serpentwar Nakor created that Church didn't he?


To Fake Vencar, I don't think its revealed how the city forever is created, although Pug and Nakor have several theories, I believe one involves Marcros creating it to be the only place that he and Nakor and Pug etc could discuss Nalar without causing him to return...

As for people having to be around for gods to exists e.g. the two blind gods of chaos, I don't think gods have to have worshipers because it says somewhere that there were 7 elders gods (I think its 7) and 93 younger gods, and the younger gods were created by the elder gods....which seems to suggest that worshipers aren't needed..

 

[woodsman]

I think in someways people stopped because the good goddess was killed but it's suggested that people were stopping before that. Thus one of the reasons she hasn't returned is due to the fact that people do not like to follow a good or right path, which would benifit her, as much as one which leads to power or wealth etc despite costs.

The return of Arch-Indar is estimated to take at the very least; tens of centuries. the Ishapians are tryig to do a similar thing for Ishap and they're the biggest and most powerful temple and have been around for centuries and yet are nowhere near completing their task...