The Revived Tolkien Trivia

[farntfar]

I am assuming that Lossarnach is somehow translatable to the Valley of Flowers, although I can find no evidence of it.

If so Shadowfax would show Ioreth how to hurry, if she couldn't find any Kingsfoil in the houses of healing.

'And if not,' said Gandalf, ' I will ride to Lossarnach with Ioreth behind me, and she shall take me to the woods, but not to her sisters. And Shadowfax shall show her the meaning of haste.'

 

[Pyan]

That's correct, farntfar.
I hold my hand up to an error in the Vale of Flowers - the reference is in The Complete Guide to Middle-earth, which is not an approved book. Sorry.

 

[farntfar]

Thank you, Py. And thank you for the Vale of Flowers reference.

Try this:

In Fangorn forest, seemingly because he had forgotten,Gandalf went through a couple of alternatives, before he was ready to accept the name Gandalf.

At another time it is told how he recounted a more complete list of his aliases, but I think that's come up before. So...

At the council of Elrond, Gandalf spoke of another character who had many aliases, although only one was actually given.

The question is, What am I talking about, and can you think of other caracters in the LotR who might possibly lay claim to this last alias and can you say why?
(I've thought of 2 candidates but there may be more.)

 

[Pyan]

How about Tom Bombadil/Treebeard?

But I had forgotten Bombadil, if indeed this is still the same that walked the woods and hills long ago, and even then was older than the old. That was not then his name. Iarwain Ben-adar we called him, oldest and fatherless. But many another name he has since been given by other folk: Forn by the Dwarves, Orald by Northern Men, and other names beside.†

Now, Elrond calls Bombadil "oldest". But later on, we meet Fangorn, the Ent: and Gandalf explains to Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli what he is:

Treebeard is Fangorn, the guardian of the forest; he is the oldest of the Ents, the oldest living thing that still walks beneath the Sun upon this Middle-earth. ‡

So one answer to the question is Treebeard.

(So who's right? Gandalf or Elrond? Personally, I'd go for Bombadil is being the Eldest, but as for created living beings (which Bombadil patently is not), Treebeard is still the oldest walking Middle-earth at that time, being at least 11,000 years old if he's to beat Círdan, the oldest Elf. )

† FotR, B2, Ch2, The Council of Elrond
‡ TT, Bk3, Ch5, The White Rider

 

[farntfar]

Indeed, Py. You have found the 2 possible candidates that I had thought of for Oldest and fatherless, although I was a little unsure of the fatherless part, especially when it came to Cirdan.

It is said that he is of the kin of the brothers Olwë and Elwë, although that doesn't necessarily mean that any of them were fatherless. They spent an unspecified time beside the lake Cuivienien apparently, before Oromë found them. So Cirdan could possibly have had a father.
Indeed, what the whole concept of "the brothers Olwë and Elwë" or what their kinship with Cirdan means without fathers and mothers and stuff is a bit difficult for me. But nevermind.

A first generation bell to you, and of course the next question.


P.S. Did anyone else relate the words

I still remember the talks by the water
The proud sons and daughter
That knew the knowledge of the land
Spoke to me in sweet accustomed ways

in the Yes song Starship Trooper to the mere of Cuivienien?

 

[Pyan]

Did anyone else relate the words

I still remember the talks by the water
The proud sons and daughter
That knew the knowledge of the land
Spoke to me in sweet accustomed ways

in the Yes song Starship Trooper to the mere of Cuivienien?

Never actually occurred to me - but I can see where you're coming from.

There's another candidate, as well: Maglor, son of Fëanor, who was born roughly the same time as Círdan, in the Noontime of the Trees. After throwing his Silmaril into the sea, he wandered along the coasts of Middle-earth, lamenting the loss. There's no death-date recorded for him, so he could still be around in the Fourth Age...

The Silmarillion, Quenta Silmarillion, Chapter XXIV: "Of the Voyage of Eärendil and the War of Wrath"

 

[Pyan]

Right, then:

Crebain out of Dunland: who unwittingly helped in their creation? (Quote, please).

 

[Boaz]

@pyan I just reread The Hobbits' first meeting with Tom and their night at his place. How could Elrond forget about him? How could Saruman not even consider him? I could push my theology here, but I think it's Tolkien's love for keeping an aspect of fairy tale in this hard fantasy. Usually people told stories of "Once upon a time..." and Tolkien gives us a good dose of that in The Hobbit... but the histories of the Ring, Gondor, the Eldar, and the Shire, and his development of languages and races presents a much more concrete world than fairy tales and mythologies. But a purposeful enigma like Bombadil grounds The Lord of the Rings in fantasy instead of historical fantasy.

@farntfar Yes' Starship Trooper was released six years before The Silmarillion. But I will say that the entire chorus uses seasons, roads, water and land, and so could be reminiscent of Bilbo's traveling songs.

Speak to me of summer
Long winters longer than time can remember
Setting up of other roads
To travel on in old accustomed ways
I still remember the talks by the water
The proud sons and daughters
That in the knowledge of the land
Spoke to me in sweet accustomed ways

 

[farntfar]

Boaz
Hmm, yes. I hadn't done a chronology test on it, and yet thinking about it, I definitely listened to the Yes Album some time before I read the Silmarillion.

Several progressive bands seamed to use Tolkien type themes though. We even have a thread on the subject, I think.

Py,
Maglor may well qualify for Oldest, but by your own admission, certainly not fatherless (or even grandfatherless. )

 

[Pyan]

Ah, but was “fatherless” part of the solution? Presumably even Treebeard owed something to pollen (and a bee?)...

 

[Boaz]

...and Yavanna's shared concerns to Manwe who told her that Eru would take care of it. And since Manwe is the lord of all birds.... he was probably the guy to create the evil crows of Dunland. Looking in The Silmarillion....

Edit: Okay... I did not see it in the Valaquenta. But here's something... The Silmarillion, Quenta Silmarillion, Chapter One, Of the Beginning of Days: As yet no flower had bloomed nor any bird had sung, for these things waited still their time in the bosom of Yavanna.

But I do not know who unwittingly helped... Melian is called akin to Yavanna. I'll have to think some more.

 

[Grimward]

If this is correct, I was helped by a thought from one of the very first fantasy books I ever read, Ursula LeGuin's A Wizard of Earthsea, where Ged confronts Yevaud the dragon at risk of his life, gambling on the knowledge of a previous wizard, wise in names.

Crebain is plural for craban, or crow.

My premise is that it's not so much about the actual creation of the crows, but more that they were made available to Saruman, resulting in the large flock that stalked the Company as it went South from Rivendell and causing Aragon to utter that word the only time it's found in the Trilogy, Hobbit or Silmarillion....if so, there are 2 quotes here. First:

Send out messages to all the beasts and birds that are your friends. Tell them to bring news of anything that bears on this matter to Saruman and Gandalf. Let messages be sent to Orthanc.

Gandalf, to Radagast the Brown, The Fellowship of the Ring, Book Two, Chapter II, The Council of Elrond.

and

He gathered a great host of spies, and many of these were birds; for Radagast lent him his aid, divining naught of his treachery, and deeming that this was but part of the watch upon the Enemy.

He, referring to Curunir, or Saruman. Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age, The Silmarillion.

If so, Radagast the Brown is the answer.

 

[Pyan]

You’ve got it, Grimmy - it’s the second quote I had in mind.
Your turn...

 

[Grimward]

Thank you, your greenness. A trickly little spin in that nugget.

*Reaches over to the trophy table and snags an unwitting bell*

Possibly an easy one....where exactly is a shelving shore to be found?

 

[HareBrain]

Possibly an easy one....where exactly is a shelving shore to be found?

I assume that's a typo? There's a shelving store on the third level of Minas Tirith, just round the corner from White Tree Pie & Mash. In the original draft, Aragorn bought some rawl-plugs there.

 

[Grimward]

Ah, and he paid for them on his debit Cardolan, did he (bet I'm going to Rhuadar THAT one)? Not only good with a blade and a crown, but a keen financial mind as well, that Aragorn.

'Tis not a typo, Good Hare.

 

[Boaz]

Gandalf likens Butterbur's mind to a lumber yard, but a shelving store?

 

[Grimward]

Well, that's a pretty exact location, but alas, no; my challenge contains no typos, Bo.

 

[Grimward]

Hmm, it seems that I must give away this "store" you kindly folk reference (or use it!) to keep it from continuing to float to the surface and obscure the correct answer....

 

[HareBrain]

I do seem to remember there being a reference to a shelving shore, but I can't place it. It's not where I thought it might be, where the Noldor return to Middle Earth in the Silmarillion.